A "born again" just came to my door


#1

A young man knocked at my door and asked what church i belong to. I told him St Augustines. He seemed very excited about that. He told me where his church was, and then asked me how I know I’m going to heaven.
My heart was pounding as I tried to remember St Paul. I took a breath and said that I am working out my salvation. He asked me if I was familiar with a particular verse from Ephesians (I was too nervous to remember which one).
I replied that the ONLY place in the Bible that mentions faith alone is in JAMES where the idea of faith alone is condemned…
then he asked me if I was getting my info from a “Catholic” Bible, to which I replied, well, who wrote the bible?

I guess this post really isn’t even a question… but my heart is still pounding. I want to be able to shut the salvation argument down.

I almost wanted to keep talking, but he was a stranger at my door and it was getting dark.

I felt like an idiot not being able to rattle off Bible verses! :blush: I wish I could handle this situation more effectively (in charity of course!)

Any suggestions for a very beginning apologist wannabe?


#2

Read the Catholic Essential Survival Guide and I do recommend going to Bible Christian Society.

biblechristiansociety.com


#3

thanks for the link Manny… I will check it out!


#4

After having studied apologetics in my spare time for the past two or three years and having no such experience myself, I have one thing to say…

Lucky. :stuck_out_tongue: :wink:

Keep up your dedication. I’ll be praying for you. :slight_smile:


#5

Tim, I think that’s why my heart was pounding… I wanted to give the right answers so much!

The salvation subject is ALWAYS the one that begins the convo it seems. I think this is the subject I should study first. I REALLY want to be able to defend the faith. (and it’s fun to “surprise” non-Catholics who think Catholics don’t know the Bible!):knight2:


#6

Sounds to me like you did fine.

You know, prosletyzers never come to our door. Ever! No fundamentalists, no Mormons, no Jehovah’s Witnesses … what are we, chopped liver? Hmmpf! :dts:


#7

Ya know what me too. They used to come to my door, but I think they black listed me.

A few years ago I let two Mormons in to my house. We got into a long debate for about 3 weeks. But everytime Mormon #2 would agree with me, well, Mormon #1 would return with a different Mormon #2. He replaced about 4 Mormon #2’s over that time, because the #2’s kept agreeing with me. He thought I was challenge because he claimed he converted a Monk. And I thought he was a challenge cause I wanted to convert him.

Well I guess he ran out of Mormon #2’s because he suddenly stopped coming and I haven’t seen them since.

Then one day some Jeohavah witnesses came to my door. They handed me the Watchtower, and I gasped, and I said in all sincereity, “Quick you must convert to Catholic right away”. Well, they literally ran away from my door, and looked back after about 30 yards and yelled back “we are christians to ya know”. I said no your not you must convert right now. Well no more J.W.'s come knocking on my door anymore. I guess they must of blacklisted me too, and maybe figure I am hopeless.


#8

Hi Carolyn. I just want to say that I am not saying that your approach was a bad one. In fact, your approach was a good one! However, I personally would have used a slightly different approach coming from a born again Protestant background myself.

This is what I would have done. I would have done everything that you did except I would have shown the person from a Protestant Bible that the verse about faith alone is in their Bible as well so that they do not think that I got this from my “corrupted Catholic Bible”. I would preferably use a KJV because you never know if this person might be a King James Onlyist. That and the KJV is acceptable to all Protestants that I know of. But yeah, that’s the only thing that I would have done differently. And honestly, that’s probably because I used to be a born again Protestant and I probably wouldn’t have listened about the “Who do you think wrote the Bible?” thing. I probably would have just thought to myself “Changing the subject are we?” But again, that is just me. :wink:

God bless,
Holly :slight_smile:


#9

I love it! But just think of those poor #2’s having to go back for re-education. LOL


#10

Don’t. Instead, focus on studying the Bible as a whole. It’s great to memorize Scripture, but rattling off isolated verses is a bad way of using the Bible anyway. Don’t go into the discussion accepting his premises.

But it does help to be able to point out that “working out your salvation” comes from Philippians 2:12. The next verse reads, “for it is God who works in you to will and do of His good pleasure.” You need to be able to defend both sides of this. Point out that in Catholicism our good works are gifts from God–God is working in us. So you don’t believe in salvation by human works. You believe in salvation by God’s grace working in you.

I don’t mean to tell you what you believe, but this passage is a really helpful one for Catholics, I think. You can then use this to point out that when Paul says elsewhere that we are not saved by works, he means our own works done apart from Christ. That’s the point at which to bring in James, who says that works work together with faith and make it perfect.

Edwin


#11

All of these responses are helpful to me and I thank everyone who posted a response here.
:slight_smile:

I continually ask God to help me find the right words in order to speak truth.


#12

Carolyn,
You did fine! Just remember a few basics:
[LIST=1]
*]Pray before you speak… don’t be afraid to ask for God’s words to guide you.
*]Remember that they really really believe in what they are saying no matter how wrong they are… never treat them with antagonism (not saying you did)
*]When they turn and leave quickly, you have struck a nerve and they are retreating.
*]Always greet them with a smile and when they leave… the same. They are like misguided children, treat them as such.
*]When all else fails, (and at some point you will) smile and thank them for their time and tell them you are very happy with your parish.[/LIST]You did great, anytime we witness and don’t lose our cool we are a witness to Christ.


#13

Catholic Answers does have a “Cheat sheet.” At least, the use to have one. It’s a fairly large laminated deal that breaks this sort of thing into categories. Like, salvation. It gives a few verses under each one. But, only a part of the verse is given, just to give you an idea of what’s there.

I got mine a few years ago when I subscribed to “This Rock.” I don’t know if they still give them out, but you might want to see if you can get one. Catholic Answers also has a bible with inserts that could be helpful. I try to always have mine close by so I can use it in those type situations. You can also get indexing tabs, which I recommend. It quickens search time.


#14

You don’t need a cheat sheet.

Ask them how they know they are saved. It will come down to the reality—they know no such thing.

For every verse they cite, they omit dozens which contradict their citation; invariably omitting John 6, for example.

The bottom line is they claim to know they are saved because a) that is what they wish to believe and b) that false claim of certitude is their sole apologetic.


#15

:clapping: :rotfl:

great story and good job! :thumbsup:


#16

What does this mean ? because I used to be a born again Protestant ?


#17

:smiley: Yeah some of these guys are trained to zero in on Catholics (Jehovah’s Witnesses do the same thing.) because they are told they are biblically ignorant and not Christians. :rolleyes:

He told me where his church was, and then asked me how I know I’m going to heaven.

Yeah… this is the mark of one who has targeted a Catholic because they hold to the OSAS/“Eternal Security of the believer” error and like to capitalize on that when they talk to us because they know we do not share it.

My heart was pounding as I tried to remember St Paul. I took a breath and said that I am working out my salvation. He asked me if I was familiar with a particular verse from Ephesians (I was too nervous to remember which one).

That’s [FONT=“Palatino Linotype”]Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; and yeah…he gave you the textbook response of Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory

I replied that the ONLY place in the Bible that mentions faith alone is in JAMES where the idea of faith alone is condemned…

and you responded perfectly with James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? and you can always add verse 26 which says. "For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead. "

then he asked me if I was getting my info from a “Catholic” Bible, to which I replied, well, who wrote the bible?

If that’s his best shot then he’s on a losing streak big time! Those passages are the same regardless of the New Testament used, whether KJV or Douay-Rheims Challoner or NAB.:thumbsup:

I guess this post really isn’t even a question… but my heart is still pounding. I want to be able to shut the salvation argument down.

Don’t feel bad my friend, you actually did very well for the first time out. If I recall correctly, I think I had about the same response the first few times somebody tried to rattle my cage about our most holy faith, but (just like with you) it backfired on them and got me digging and learning, so I think they just REALLY messed up by making you want to better know your faith and become a better apologist. :clapping: :extrahappy:

I almost wanted to keep talking, but he was a stranger at my door and it was getting dark.

Yeah, a long drawn out debate at your door at dusk will make most people uncomfortable.

I felt like an idiot not being able to rattle off Bible verses! :blush: I wish I could handle this situation more effectively (in charity of course!)

Quit beatin’ yourself up girl! You did better than you think! The deep breaths and thinking on your feet was actually great! Believe me, I’ve been there and done that too.

Any suggestions for a very beginning apologist wannabe?

Sure there are! Some folks have already offered you good resources, like BCS that Manny gave you, you can check that out and there is a wealth of excellent stuff there. Those MP3s are invaluably good!

For an investment of about $10.00 there is one great booklet that San Juan Catholic Seminars puts out as the 1st of its Beginning Apologetics Series (#1) http://shop.catholicapologetics.com/images/1166338754852833803511.jpeg This with a highlighter will really help. Mine sits right here by the comp.

Finally, whatever version of the Catholic Bible you have…read it. Make a commitment to prayerfully read some of it every day for the rest of your life. It’s worth it and the church offers indulgences to encourage it.

I suggest beginning with the gospels and then Acts and then perhaps James, Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians then just go from there. Reading about 3 chapters every day will get you through it all in a year or so , but that’s not the point. :slight_smile:

Enjoy, my friend! You are on your way.
Shoot me a PM if I can help in any way at all.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.[/FONT]


#18

When I was growing up, our house was avoided by the JW’s, Mormons and Baptists who used to routinely go door-to-door.

The story goes, when I was an infant my father worked midnights and my mom taught school during the day. One day I was late going down for my nap and my dad was exceptionally tired.

He had just gotten me to sleep when a couple of religious people rang the doorbell. The sound woke me up, and my dad opened the door, recognized what the people wanted, and yelled “God’s dead; we nailed him to a cross!” and slammed the door.

My folks continued to live in that house for almost 30 years, and you could watch the people look right past our house when they were going door-to-door.


#19

Not exactly Tef …

Agreed its good policy to first ask them about their salvation. This allows one to find out what their faith and church beliefs are.

Some will be from cults … w/o the true Gospel message. Others however, may be truly saved and sincere.

If we right away assume they are deluded or confused …we may be prejudging them. I was led to Christ from a knock on the door … so I especially appreciate those who take the time to witness to a neighbor — like Paul and early Christians did it … so well.


#20

Church Militant;4183498]:smiley: Yeah some of these guys are trained to zero in on Catholics (Jehovah’s Witnesses do the same thing.) because they are told they are biblically ignorant and not Christians. :rolleyes: Yeah… this is the mark of one who has targeted a Catholic because they hold to the OSAS/“Eternal Security of the believer” error and like to capitalize on that when they talk to us because they know we do not share it.That’s [size=][FONT=“Palatino Linotype”]Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;[/size]Rheims Challoner or NAB.:thumbsup: Don’t feel bad my friend, you actually did very well for the first time out. If I recall correctly, I think I had about the same response the first few times somebody tried to rattle my cage about our most holy faith, but (just like with you) it backfired on them and got me digging and learning, so I think they just REALLY messed up by making you want to better know your faith and become a better apologist. :clapping: :extrahappy: Yeah, a long drawn out debate at your door at dusk will make most people uncomfortable.Quit beatin’ yourself up girl! You did better than you think! The deep breaths and thinking on your feet was actually great! Believe me, I’ve been there and done that too.
Sure there are! Some folks have already offered you good and yeah…he gave you the textbook response of Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory[/FONT] and you responded perfectly with James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? and you can always add verse 26 which says. "For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead. "If that’s his best shot then he’s on a losing streak big time! Those passages are the same regardless of the New Testament used, whether KJV or Douay-resources, like BCS that Manny gave you, you can check that out and there is a wealth of excellent stuff there. Those MP3s are invaluably good!

For an investment of about $10.00 there is one great booklet that San Juan Catholic Seminars puts out as the 1st of its Beginning Apologetics Series (#1) http://shop.catholicapologetics.com/images/1166338754852833803511.jpeg This with a highlighter will really help. Mine sits right here by the comp.

Finally, whatever version of the Catholic Bible you have…read it. Make a commitment to prayerfully read some of it every day for the rest of your life. It’s worth it and the church offers indulgences to encourage it.

I suggest beginning with the gospels and then Acts and then perhaps James, Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians then just go from there. Reading about 3 chapters every day will get you through it all in a year or so , but that’s not the point. :slight_smile:

Enjoy, my friend! You are on your way.
Shoot me a PM if I can help in any way at all.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.[/FONT]

**Yeah some of these guys are trained to zero in on Catholics **(Jehovah’s Witnesses do the same thing.) because they are told they are biblically ignorant and not Christians. :rolleyes: Yeah… this is the mark of one who has targeted a Catholic because they hold to the OSAS/“Eternal Security of the believer” error and like to capitalize on that when they talk to us because they know we do not share it.That’s

As a born again christian ( And is there any other kind? ) See John 3:3. I would take affence to the way you make the assertion like JW! JW’s like RC are working there way to heaven not christians who have trusted in Christ alone for there salvation. To have some other motive other than for you to no the truth is absurd. What other purpose would he have to " Zero in on Catholic’s". But to share the gospel of grace with unbelievers.

Yeah… this is the mark of one who has targeted a Catholic because they hold to the OSAS/“Eternal Security of the believer” error and like to capitalize on that when they talk to us because they know we do not share it Again a false assumption. He was again sharing the truth of the gospel of grace.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;/ Again your assumption and interpretation are wrong.
Work out your own salvation Gr. verb rendered " work out means" to continully work to bring something to fullfillment or completion. It cannot refer to salvation by works See Romans 3:21-24. Ephesians 2:8-9. but it does refer to the believer’s responcibility for active pursuit of obediance in the process of sanctifacation. See Phillippians 3:13-14 Romans 6:19 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 v.15:58 2 Corinthains 7:1 Gal. 6:7-9
Ephesians 4:1 Col. 3:1-17 Hebrews 6:10-11 v. 12:1-2
2 Peter 1:5-11.
Fear and trembling this is the attitude with which christians are to pursue their sanctifaction. It involves a healthy fear of God and a righteous awe and respect for Him. See Proverbs 1:7-10 Isaiah 66:1-2

Part II


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