A courting couple Living Together...


#1

Is a couple that is courting that decides to live together committing a sin by simply living together?

Obviously tempations would be higher, but is there a sin in just the living together, under the same roof - but in separate rooms, beds, etc?

I looked up information regarding this and all I could find was about couples living together and being sexually active, and the answer to that is obvious


#2

This is just my opinion off the top of my head. It would be a sin if it caused others to stumble. For example if others knew you were Christians and living together they probably would assume you were intimate (not such a stretch) and there goes your good Christian witness. And I agree with you, temptations would be much higher.

Peace,
CM


#3

Giving scandal is also a sin. Living together is not done in a vacuum; we live in society, and Christ has some pretty harsh things to say about those who give scandal. It may be possible that the couple is living apart, but the public doesn’t know what “goes on behind closed doors”, to quote the Country & Western song. By living in the same house unmarried, you are giving the appearance of sleeping together. That is the scandal, and the come back that others should not be judging simply avoids the issue: we have a duty to not give scandal.


#4

my mom and step dad did that. we had some housing difficulties and between them they had 8 kids. they used every chance tehy could to press upon us that this was a situation of grave need and usually peopel shoudl not do this. My mom slept on the couch for 8 months, (2 before dad proposed + 6 month waiting period before marraige). I think given the situation, that they minimized scandal and did their best to remedy teh problem ASAP.


#5

Why pretend to be married? Wait and enjoy the real thing. You will be married for the rest of your lives. What will waiting a year mean to a life time of living together?

Peace,
Jen


#6

If the use of separate sleeping quarters is being employed and no fornication is transpiring then the couple are morally above board. And why does nearly everbody assume that because a man and a woman are residing in the same domicile that fornication is transpiring? Why does nearly everybody think that it is such an impossiblity for a man and a woman to have self restraint?

Albert


#7

[quote=Albert Kopsho]If the use of separate sleeping quarters is being employed and no fornication is transpiring then the couple are morally above board. And why does nearly everbody assume that because a man and a woman are residing in the same domicile that fornication is transpiring? Why does nearly everybody think that it is such an impossiblity for a man and a woman to have self restraint?

Albert
[/quote]

Probably based on human nature and the tendency to sin. I think we call it Original sin and concupicense.

They may be morally above board as far as their sleeping arrangements, but that doesn’t answer the issue of giving scandal. They are giving the world the appearance of living together. To simply say that people should not be judgemental is to make the statements of Christ re: those who give scandal to be empty and meaningless. It also bespeaks an attitutde that “what I do is nobody’s business”, which is another way of saying that one only lives in community when it benefits one; otherwise one lives in isolation.

St Paul also had a good bit to say about giving scandal, including the fact that morally neutral behavior, or morally good behavior may need to be rethought if the behavior gives rise to scandal.

Perhaps you would like to address those issues?


#8

Probably based on human nature and the tendency to sin. I think we call it Original sin and concupicense.

They may be morally above board as far as their sleeping arrangements, but that doesn’t answer the issue of giving scandal. They are giving the world the appearance of living together. To simply say that people should not be judgemental is to make the statements of Christ re: those who give scandal to be empty and meaningless. It also bespeaks an attitutde that “what I do is nobody’s business”, which is another way of saying that one only lives in community when it benefits one; otherwise one lives in isolation.

St Paul also had a good bit to say about giving scandal, including the fact that morally neutral behavior, or morally good behavior may need to be rethought if the behavior gives rise to scandal.

Perhaps you would like to address those issues?

Bravo.
:clapping: :thumbsup:


#9

As someone else said, cohabitation does not occur in a vacuum, it occurs in the context of society. Cohabitation is what everyone sees. No one is going to see disclaimers about seperate living quarters, chaste living, etc. The message is simply cohabitation is ok and weaker couples see this and follow suit. As Scripture says, temptations are sure to come, but woe to the one from whom they come.

Scott


#10

Please note that this issue is also addressed on the following thread:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=41737


#11

Only someone who is morally bankrupt would not have self restraint when it comes to the opposite sex and only someone who is morally bankrupt would assume that a man and a woman who is residing in the same domicile is not employing the use of separate sleeping quarters with fornication not transpiring. They could put a sign on the outside of the domicile stating that the use of separate sleeping quarters is being employed and that fornication is not transpiring and that would take care of the idiots that have their minds in the gutter all the time.

Albert


#12

Let’s remember, we are not called simply to avoid sin, but also to do our best to avoid the occasion of sin (situations where sinning is made easier). Is living in the same domicile going to make it easier or harder to stay chaste?


#13

Albert, I think this thread is asking about what the Church teaches about umarrieds living together, not about what Albert thinks about umarrieds living together.


#14

Genesis315,

If I was residing in the same domicile with a woman it would not be hard at all to remain chaste because it is ingrained in my psyche that fornication is morally wrong. Only someone who is a total idiot would not have self restraint with the opposite sex. And like I stated if I was in the situation of residing with a woman in the same domicile I would put a sign on the front of the domicile stating that the use of separate sleeping quarters is being employed and that fornication is not transpiring and that would take care of the idiots that have their minds in the gutter all the time.

Albert


#15

Albert, have you heard the saying, “If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, by golly it’s a duck”

It would be illogical to not assume that two people who are dating and living together are not sleeping together. Why? Because the overwhelming majority of people in this situation are. That’s like saying you should assume that if I were up to bat vs Roger Clemens I would get on base. The only way that’s happening is if I get hit by the pitch in which case I’m either severely injured or dead, and would then have to be wheeled to first base.

When something has been observed with an overwhelming relationship (If A then B), it is proper to assume B is correct even though there is the slightest possibility of C.


#16

Albert,

It’s good to know that you have so much self-restraint, but not everybody does. For the average person, living with a member of the opposite sex, particularly when there is a romantic attraction, would be a near occasion of sin. I personally know people who lived together for “necessity” and ended up falling into sin, even though they had intended to remain chaste. Therefore, the Church is wise to discourage it. Furthermore, it would give scandal, because as the previous poster stated, in our society it is logical to assume that the people in question are not living chastely.


#17

[quote=Albert Kopsho]Genesis315,

If I was residing in the same domicile with a woman it would not be hard at all to remain chaste because it is ingrained in my psyche that fornication is morally wrong. Only someone who is a total idiot would not have self restraint with the opposite sex. And like I stated if I was in the situation of residing with a woman in the same domicile I would put a sign on the front of the domicile stating that the use of separate sleeping quarters is being employed and that fornication is not transpiring and that would take care of the idiots that have their minds in the gutter all the time.

Albert
[/quote]

first off, let’s be charitable and not call people idiots. Second of all, you didn’t answer my question. You say it would not be hard to give into temptation. My question was, “would it be easier than if you lived in different domiciles?”

Also, Albert, watch out for that sin called “pride.” It makes us think we’re too good to ever give into temptation. The deceiver wants you to think you can easily resist temptation, you’re more likely to let your guard down.


#18

Failing this logic. One axiom of writing computer programs is that you assume that the user is an idiot and write it accordingly to try to make it idiot proof. If you don’t want them to click something on a certain screen you don’t put it there…
If everyone is so stupid to come to such a conclusion, wouldn’t it be uncharitable for you to knowingly fool them by projecting an image which is untrue?


#19

[quote=Albert Kopsho]Only someone who is morally bankrupt would not have self restraint when it comes to the opposite sex and only someone who is morally bankrupt would assume that a man and a woman who is residing in the same domicile is not employing the use of separate sleeping quarters with fornication not transpiring. They could put a sign on the outside of the domicile stating that the use of separate sleeping quarters is being employed and that fornication is not transpiring and that would take care of the idiots that have their minds in the gutter all the time.

Albert
[/quote]

Morally bankrupt. Boy, that has a really nice ring to it. Do you mean anyone who is a sinner?

Now, I may be a bit naieve, but I have yet to meet a couple who is living together in a residence who are not sleeping together before marriage. Maybe it is just happening in Oregon (after all, we are either 1st or 2nd in being the most unchurched state in the nation). Maybe everywhere else, all these couples are
co-habiting, but not co-pulating.

Maybe pigs fly, too.

And then, again, maybe not.

And yes, they could put a sign up stating that they are living as brother and sister.

By the way, if someone else’s mind is in the gutter, one might ask how it got there. Couldn’t be that it observed behavior that ran counter to the moral code, could it? Or are you suggesting that it just sort of strolled (or maybe rolled) into that gutter, all by its lonesome self, and because it was residing in the gutter, it somehow came up with a lacivious thought that this fine, upstanding, highly moral couple was doing something untoward?

You seem to be making the statement that living in the immediate proximity of serious sin is a highly normal, non-stressful, non-tempting existence and only the most depraved of individuals would give in. I’m curious how you arrived at such an interesting view of human nature. Perhaps it is that you and I are reading a different book (of course, less there be any misunderstanding, I refer to the Bible)?

Or are we just from different planets? Me, of course, and all those other morally bankrupt individuals being from the Planet Laciviousness, and you from the Planet Pristine Purity?

So I take it that Christ’s, and Paul’s condemnation of giving scandal is all wrong, and we’ve just mis-translated it, and they are really condeming all those low-life guttersnipes. Or maybe it wasn’t mis-translated; we’re idiots and don’t know how to read. What with our minds in the gutter all the time, as you say.


#20

[quote=Albert Kopsho]Genesis315,

If I was residing in the same domicile with a woman it would not be hard at all to remain chaste because it is ingrained in my psyche that fornication is morally wrong. Only someone who is a total idiot would not have self restraint with the opposite sex. And like I stated if I was in the situation of residing with a woman in the same domicile I would put a sign on the front of the domicile stating that the use of separate sleeping quarters is being employed and that fornication is not transpiring and that would take care of the idiots that have their minds in the gutter all the time.

Albert
[/quote]

Ah, there’s the rub!

We’re not talking about your psyche, Albert.

We’re talking about your libido.

You do have one, don’t you?


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