Hello everyone. Several months ago I came across an article in which a man who is a Mormon and who calls himself gay is happily married to a woman. Well, the issue is somewhat complicated and I don’t want to explain it all here by myself so here is a link to his blog post where he explains all of this:
So, is what he doing moral? Is there anything immoral about the situation? What other insights do you have? Do you think that perhaps he is actually bisexual and not gay? Is there any other input you would like to add?
I remember seeing this months and months ago. I live in UT, so when this story came out, people were either shocked, or in disbelief that this could happen here. i scanned through the blog a little bit to refresh my memory…
So, is what he doing moral? No, I would never have married a man who admited to me he was gay.
Is there anything immoral about the situation? the whole marriage sounds like a sham. I know a few Mormons who are gay and dated women due to the pressure to marry young.
What other insights do you have? not much, other than I could never handle it.
Do you think that perhaps he is actually bisexual and not gay? it’s a possiblity, but if he’s gay, he’s gay. he probably married the girl due to pressure, or maybe he just wanted a family.who knows!
There’s nothing immoral about his marriage or situation. This is clearly a very unique situation. I pretty sure he is gay.
[quote=Josh Weed]4. If you’re married to a woman, how can you really be gay?
This is a really good question and I can see how people can be confused about it. Some might assume that because I’m married to a woman, I must be bisexual. This would be true if sexual orientation was defined by sexual experience. Heck, if sexual orientation were defined by sexual experience, I would be as straight as the day is long even though I’ve never been turned on by a Victoria’s Secret commercial in my entire life. Sexual orientation is defined by attraction, not by experience. In my case, I am attracted sexually to men. Period. Yet my marriage is wonderful, and Lolly and I have an extremely healthy and robust sex life. How can this be?
The truth is, what people are really asking with the above question is “how can you be gay if your primary sex partner is a girl?” I didn’t fully understand the answer to this question until I was doing research on sexuality in grad school even though I had been happily married for almost five years at that point. I knew that I was gay, and I also knew that sex with my wife was enjoyable. But I didn’t understand how that was happening. Here is the basic reality that I actually think many people could use a lesson in: sex is about more than just visual attraction and lust and it is about more than just passion and infatuation. I won’t get into the boring details of the research here, but basically when sex is done right, at its deepest level it is about intimacy. It is about one human being connecting with another human being they love. It is a beautiful physical manifestation of two people being connected in a truly vulnerable, intimate manner because they love each other profoundly. It is bodies connecting and souls connecting. It is beautiful and rich and fulfilling and spiritual and amazing. Many people never get to this point in their sex lives because it requires incredible communication, trust, vulnerability, and connection. And Lolly and I have had that from day one, mostly because we weren’t distracted by the powerful chemicals of infatuation and obsession that usually bring a couple together (which dwindle dramatically after the first few years of marriage anyway). So, in a weird way, the circumstances of our marriage allowed us to build a sexual relationship that is based on everything partners should want in their sex-life: intimacy, communication, genuine love and affection. This has resulted in us having a better sex life than most people I personally know. Most of whom are straight. Go fig.
Heard about this a long time ago. I was engaged to a man who came out to me as gay, but he still wanted to make it work. It would have been the easy way to go but I’m glad I had the strength to leave. My heart breaks for this woman.
He didn’t deceive her, she knew. He’s simply choosing to not engage in homosexual activity, and, even though it’s not really his cup of tea (although he did say he enjoys sex with his wife, even though he’s not sexually attracted to women, so I’m not sure how that works ). He obviously prefers marriage and a family to a celibate life, which would be his only other moral option. Just from the article, he appears to be a good husband and father. If both parties are ok with it, and it’s not immoral (he’s not lying to himself or his wife, and being married to and sleeping with a member of the opposite is how God designed it), what’s the problem? :shrug:
So a man who identifies himself as having homosexual desires is not allowed to have a happy marriage with his wife despite and because of them?
If a gay man can make a marriage work and find peace and happiness in it, as can his wife, then what on earth possesses anyone to suggest that he is a ‘scumball’? What a truly revolting and vicious thing to say about him.
One would have thought this man’s example was something to be held up and praised, but no, homosexual people are evil and ‘scum’ no matter what. Judgemental or what?
Historically Mormans were taught that the practice of homosexuality was a choice or a curable mental illness, however currently the LDS Church holds that same sex attraction is not a conscience choice and that it cannot be cured with therapy. The church teaches that regardless of the cause of same sex attraction, one can and must avoid all immoral relationships.
All Mormans are required to live by the chastity rules of their denomination, which are functionally the same as Catholicism - i.e. no sex before marriage.
The LDS Church does not agree or disagree that there is a possibility that Homosexuals can change. To say cure is to imply a disease. I spoke with my friend a Mormon Bishop and he was aware of this blog.
Reading the article you find this…
When I say I am gay or homosexual or same-sex attracted (and I use these terms interchangeably, which is a personal decision) I refer specifically to sexual orientation. I am sexually attracted to men.
This article should read…
Mormon man with SSA married a woman…
He states that SSA in his mind=gay and that is a tragedy, for it implies Born that way, Essentialism. Essentialism is that false notion that Homosexuals are born that way and there is no proof of that.
Any Mormon, any Catholic that believes that Homosexuality is like being born with blue eyes should have their head examined regardless of how many Homosexuals they know.
About two years ago, I saw a psychologist to get medication for my ADHD-I. She was a lesbian, and when I told her that I was a gay man in a heterosexual marriage, she spent an entire session hammering me with questions about my situation in a genuine effort to make sure I was happy. I didn’t love that she did this, but as a clinician myself, I understood where she was coming from
During our conversation, she told me about her life with her partner. She spoke of a girl, whom she considered her daughter, who is the biological child of her ex-lover, with whom she lived for only three years. She told me of how much she loved her daughter, but how infrequently she got to see her. And eventually, when talking about my sex life, she said “well, that’s good you enjoy sex with your wife, but I think it’s sad that you have to settle for something that is counterfeit
He goes on to point out he has ADHD and what is sad is that in his looking for help he went to a Lesbian counselor…duh…what did he expect to get…he was told his relationship with his wife was counterfeit…this is sad…
What is true is that this man has SSA.
Homosexuality is not like being born with blue eyes.
To accept that the only counseling for a Homosexual is acceptance is error.
and this article is about a man with SSA that clouds the issue at hand.
Mormons have it wrong on Christian thought and if any Mormon believes that Homosexuality is not curable is doubly wrong in two different ways.
If this man ever acted on his SSA and had an unnatural, immoral, relationship with a man he would no longer be a member of the LDS Church and his wife and he would have a few words…
I believe I’ve answered both questions before on several occasions, but I’m happy to humour you again.
I don’t know how sexuality becomes fixed in a person. It could be genetic. It could be hormonal or chemical influences in the womb. It could be events that took place at critical points during the formative years of the child.
I can tell you that I do NOT believe that sexuality - that is to say the sexual desires or lack thereof one experiences when viewing another person - is a chosen act. I don’t believe that any person has any moral culpability for the desires that they experience, because they don’t bid them to take place. That is my belief and it is also the settled belief of the Catholic Church.
Moving on from that, I don’t believe that, for the majority of cases, that it is possible for a person to modify themselves to such an extent that they experience sexual desires that are opposite to the ones they experienced previously. A homosexual person experiences sexual desires that are the mirror image of those experienced by a heterosexual person. I do not believe those desires to be sinful any more than the Church believes them to be sinful.
However they are caused, I believe that sexual desires are, for most people, immutable by the time these people realise they have these desires. If they were at any stage mutable before, then it is unlikely that anyone would have tried deliberately to ‘mutate’ them at that point since they were not apparent. If these desires were mutable and they were actually mutated, then I believe that nobody would have realised that that process was actually happening.
So, in a nutshell, I believe that for most adults, orientation is sufficiently fixed that for all practical purposes it’s as innate as ‘the colour of one’s eyes’ insomuch as it’s not changeable by a conscious act of will of the individual or anyone else.
I don’t include those that identify as ‘bisexual’ in this, since they have a luxury of what you might call a ‘choice’ that is natural to them, nor do I include anyone who deliberately acts contrary to their instincts (i.e. doing things that don’t come naturally to them) nor do I include those who have only experienced attractions to one gender but have an innate bisexuality that they have not yet recognised. For these people they have the choice to act in a heterosexual fashion and achieve spiritual happiness, but I do not believe that they would necessarily lose any homosexual desires by doing so: they would just not be answering those desires.
For those persons experiencing problems and ‘psychological difficulty’ stemming from their experience of same-gender sexual attraction, including how to order their lives in a way that fits within the Church’s teachings, I recommend counselling so that they can understand the moral neutrality of their desires and to help them encounter the love of God and build a fulfilling and chaste life, free from the worry and pain that bigots of religious persuasion would foist upon them by insisting that their desires are in and of themselves sinful or that it is their moral responsibility to try to change themselves. I would counsel them towards an end of worry, self-loathing, fear, guilt and towards a life of chastity and what the Church calls for - i.e. ‘disinterested friendship’ with others (i.e. where the ‘interest’ is not sexually based).
Wow. I for one found the article to be very uplifting! I guess it just goes to show what we’ve always known - that true love is so much MORE than the chemicals that swirl in our bodies.
I don’t see anything immoral about this way of life, and I absolutely applaud him for following God’s plan for proper sexual expression despite having chemical desires for the contrary. And like he said in the article, it’s not like he doesn’t enjoy sex with his wife. He experiences sex as the wonderful, spiritual, and sacred act that it is. And they have a beautiful family.
I read about this case before. I’ve not followed the link to see if it’s the same website.
I would suggest that there is significant scientific evidence that Sexual orientation is a trait which can and does change during a persons lifetime.
I would point to the Amicus Brief being put forward by a professor from Harvard in the current same sex marriage case
I would from personal experience strongly concur. There is little doubt and very strong evidence that use of Porn or other strongly sexualized fantasies does alter the sexuality of it’s users.
I have personally watched friends who’s sexuality has varied in their lifetimes. SOme people would claim that that was the realisation of a latent orientation… but where’s the evidence for that? that’s a dishonest assumption based on a prejudiced “knowledge” that sexuality and orientation are hard-wired in early development (with little to no evidence to back up that belief).
For some people their sexual orientation has become hard wired. for others it is more plastic. Personally I choose to be “Straight” however I *could *choose to explore and entertain the SSA I do sometimes feel (normally a very tiny part of my desires).
If I did that I have no doubt the intensity and frequency of those attractions would significantly increase.
Why is it dishonest to suggest that some people are bisexual?
Plenty of people identify as such, therefore it’s perfectly reasonable for such people to find differing preferences for one gender over another at different times of their lives when they might be experiencing differing influences or wish for different outcomes in the society in which they live.
Some will be more at one end of the spectrum than others, some will experience heterosexual desire first and homosexual desires later, some people may have a latent unexpressed desire contrary to the one they have experienced thus far in their lives. None of that is a dishonest statement or assumption: it simply recognises states of being for people who don’t necessarily share an identical outlook on their sexuality as you or I.
And, none of that has anything to do with the theory that sexuality is ‘hard wired’ at some point before adolescence. It may or may not be, but that’s neither relevant nor does it allow a commentary on the veracity of the statements made about the perceptions of sexuality held by the people experiencing it. To say otherwise essentially tells anyone that isn’t heterosexual that they are an out and out liar.