A Gross Presumption of God's Grace


A scenario:
An alcholic goes to the physician to get a check-up and is diagnosed as possibly having cirrhosis of the liver. After a few more initial tests, it is determined that it is not the case. In the meantime, the alcholic is mildly concerned about dying and continues to drink.
The tests come back clean, and the alcoholic presumes that it is a gift of some sort from God. The alcoholic is relieved, but continues to drink, and is unaware of the grace that was given to him. They claim it was their own faith (that was directed through prayers to God) that brought about the outcome, thanks God, has a few drinks to celebrate the good news and continues on committing the sin of drunkeness and all the negative acts it produces.

Is this not a gross presumption of God’s Grace? What part of “faith” is the individual misunderstanding? There is also a great deal of evidence that suggests a severe “spiritual ignorance” in the individual.

I could use some Church references and scriptual citations.



I would say it’s an abuse of God’s Mercy, and in that sense, it is the sin of presumption. But how many times do we commit this sin ourselves? Yet as many times as we do, just as many times should we weep with contrition and should we invoke God’s Mercy with a great trust. Sinners have a right to God’s Mercy, for it is His very nature to forgive sinners. Humbly we must beg for Mercy, lest we commit presumption yet again.


…-what God did was make them aware they have time to change their life-a "wake-up"call…what they do with that “time” and grace is their choice…and THAT is what they will have to answer for…if you can get this person to “detox” long enough to think rationally-instead of through the booze(not to mention the lower energies that hang around this lifestyle)-then perhaps they will find the strength from within to combat this…and that is where it needs to come from-THEY need to ask for intervention…the hardest part of living with an alcoholic is watching the downward spiral and wanting to stop it…you can’t…but they can-it takes alot of strength and faith and an acknowledgment and awareness of what they are doing to themselves and those who love them…and the Faith to know they aren’t alone in their struggle… on the other hand- some people just can’t handle “life”…and eventually God says “enough” and takes them home… you seem to have an awareness of the bigger picture…if it’s a loved one/friend- then you need to take care of yourself too- and not let them take you down with them…you can’t be a beacon of hope and faith and strength in the lives of those around you-if you let this undermine you as well…this person may have to fall down hard-before they find the ability to stand up-keep in mind that this test isn’t only about this person-it is about those around them as well-…help without judging-give without expectation…my prayers are with you…God Bless…Look in Ephesians1:17-19…Matthew 26:41


A couple of serious medical issues with me (CKD and diabetes) are in remission.

Diabetes is a dynamic disease and is always changing. I realize that. But from taking Lantus insulin and two oral medications, I’m now on a much lower dose of one oral med–and that on a sliding scale; I take it only 2 mg of Avandia, and only if my morning b/g is 100 or over (which it frequently is not).

On the other hand, my nephrologist is amazed at how my kidney function went from only 19% to now 49%. She has never seen that marked an improvement. At 15%, they start dialysis. I had even gone so far as to have the fistula put in my arm to have a port for it.

Also my blood pressure, for which I took 40 mg Lisonopril daily has improved. I’m now taking only 10 mg daily, and that’s mostly for my kidneys (Lisinopril is good for them).

I attribute the improvement I have received solely to God’s grace working through the mysteries of the Church, especially Confession, Communion, and Anointing.

Does this mean I don’t watch my health and diet and ignore taking my meds? Of course not!

Why not a total remission? Well, I know this will happen in the next world. In the mean time, it’s enough improvement to rejoice the hearts of the faithful and to keep doubters guessing.


My dear friend

You don’t want scripture quotes etc to help an alcoholic. What you can do is call AA and ask one from there to contact him and go and talk to him. It’s all you can do now. Even if he just chats and carries on it’ll plant the seed which often helps down the track. Almost all alcoholics have to hit a rock bottom before they do anything. When he does he will remember the chat with the AA guy and that’s when he can be helped by AA. He’s not sinning getting drunk either. He has a very serious disease and addiction. Look upon him as a very sick person and not a gross sinner. I’m not saying your not doing this. Those around him should go to Alanon meetings to learn how to deal with it too.

God bless you:thumbsup::slight_smile:


The active alcoholic person doesn’t stop drinking…because he can’t…He will continue to twist things in his own mind-because he cannot perceive normally. All alcoholics do suffer from mental illness-what you see is just the surface of the hell this person is in-Matt Talbott used to say It is easier to pull someone out of hell than it is to get an alcoholic sober. You mention “severe spiritual ignorance” Alcoholism is a three fold disease: physical, mental, & spiritual. When one member of a family is an alcoholic-all members become ill as well…it is a family disease. That is why Al-anon is especially helpful to those who live with people who are substance abusers


My dear friend

Are you a friend of Bill. Hello there:)


:thumbsup:You betcha! My homegroup is Sisters in Sobriety, Jensen Beach, FL…nice to meet you John.


Nice to meet you. Plenty of friends in my family here. God bless you:thumbsup::slight_smile:


John, I’ve read many of your responses here and I’m very impressed with your spirituality. I’m a struggling alcoholic, sober at present and a struggling Catholic. I truly believe that by God’s grace sobriety is mine for the taking. My problem seems to be Ego. If I believe I can do this, I disallow God’s grace to enter my life. When I take a drink, I don’t really know if it’s a sin of presumption that God’s grace can bring me back. As an alcoholic, I don’t always know why I take that first drink. After the first, I never know what the result will be. Maybe I should state this on a different thread but John, I wanted you to know how much I admire your spiritual outlook on these threads. Any and all prayers are greatly appreciated.:blush:


My dear friend

Thank you for your comments and encouragement. Perhaps you will find AA does the trick for you. It’s the irst drink that does all the damage as you’ve seen. If you never pick up that first drink the others don’t follow. One really needs the AA program to cure this problem though. Why not phone their hotline and ask for help. They’ll get someone to help you and take you to some meetings and get you rolling. You will be cured if you keep going and do the suggested things. Don’t be disheartned if it’s not instant ( it can be though ) just persevere and there is a wonderful life out there without the liquor. I am going to pray for you.

God bless you and peace to you:thumbsup::slight_smile:


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