A Late October Liturgy Message


Late October, 1971. The victory was almost complete.

The Missale Romanum, 1970 had been signed and promulgated. The date of mandatory adoption…November 30, The First Sunday of Advent, had been set.

For the first time in 400 years, the Mass of the Roman Rite would not be the Mass as codified after a long period of organic development and set under the Bull of Pius V, who brought order to the Church after the disaster of the Protestant Revolt, but rather a new composition, partly fabricated in a Swiss hotel by a “Consilium” headed by a monsignor, Annibale (Hannibal!) Bugnini, who had been removed from liturgical duties by John XXIII, only to be rehired by Paul VI.

Was there protest? Some, especially in Europe, Australia, parts of America, and in French Africa, where a tireless missionary had built scores of churches, hospitals, schools and roads for decades in the bush.

Was there any accomodation? Some. The aged could continue to use the now “former rite”. With permission. Only alone.

Dozens of British intellectuals protested, accusing Paul VI of destroying a Western cultural icon. A modest concession was granted to England and Wales. Monsignor Bugnini insisted it be given “little or no publicity” in a note he appended to the concession.

By 1974, there were holdouts. Notably the movement centered around that bishop from French Africa, whose parents had been lost to the Nazis, and who railed against Communism at Vatican II (to no avail).

Bugnini - now a bishop himself (though with zero pastoral responsibilities) - moved to secure his trump card - Decretum Abrogationis - a Decree of Abrogation. In other words, kill it. If you don’t kill your enemy - he may rise to strike back.

Request denied. Perhaps the ball was already rolling - in half a year he was fired from liturgy (again) and sent to Tehran.

1976, Paul VI met with the so-called “archbishop of Canterbury”. Hugged him. Gave him a pectoral cross (a grave scandal). Paul also met that French archbishop, who went to kiss his ring on bended knee. Paul pulled back his hand and asked if he came as a brother or an enemy.

Thirty years later, the Mass Paul and Annibale intended to see all but forgotten lives on.


please do not make such assertions without proof and evidence. bad form, against forum rules, and totally useless for the purpose of discussion. If the current order of the Roman Missal came off the back of a cereal box, once it has been approved and promulgated by the Pope it is law, Christ has spoken through him, and we embrace it, participate and serve the liturgy to the best of our ability.


A day of infamy :slight_smile:



Then came the indoctrination, all the explanations, all the reasons why the old should be abandoned. Why the Novus Ordo is the better way.

I remember those days.


Puzzleannie, if a pope said to do jumping jacks at the Consecration under pain of obedience, would we be obliged to obey?


Puzzleannie, if a pope said to do jumping jacks at the Consecration under pain of obedience, would we be obliged to obey?

I ask exactly this question because one “Catholic” website says we would be.

That’s scary.

And very unCatholic.

P.S…every statement I made was factual.


I would love to read this whole story! Is it from a book or a website? Where do I find what went on before or after?


yay magisterium bashing, so very Catholic, lets go hang out with Luther and Calvin they liked to bash the magesterium also


he won’t be able to give you a reliable source becaue it does not exist, because the spin he gives on the real events simply did not happen that way. he will of course be able to point you to the many conspiracy theories still circulating, but that is not evidence, it is not historical, and it is not obedient to the magesterium of the Church. We have many threads discussing the misuse and abuses that arose during the implementation of the liturgical reform begun under Popes Pius XI and XII and codified in V2, but that is not the same thing as the tired old accusation resurrected here. get over it.


It isn’t bashing if facts are reported.
Do you have any websites or references stating that any of this is wrong?


The Reform of the Liturgy by Annibale Bugnini


Go read Archbishop Bugnini’s 1981 book entitled “The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, 1948-1975”.

Over 900 pages of information from the man most central to the changes in the liturgy during that period.

I stand by what I posted. If you don’t like historical reality, I can’t help that.

Did I “bash” the magisterium? If reporting reality is suddenly “bashing”, again, I can’t help that.




Bugnini’s reform of the liturgy is documented in his book.

IIRC, Alex has done a paper(or is it thesis? sorry don’t know the correct phrase) on him.


I strongly urge anyone who cares about these issues to read the book by the man entrusted by the pope to organize and manage the changes.

It’s not “disobedient” to report reality. That’s all I did.

But it does help support another of my assertions that the minute someone posts historical reality, some will start screaming “disobedience.”

That’s scary.


Reporting reality and adding in personal interpratation of events are not the same. Look at the very tone making it seem as though there is a war at hand against the TLM. Perhaps the introduction of the Pauline Mass was not done in the best manner, but to call it an offensive move in a war is rather pointed and harsh. Then to criticize the Pope for attempting to speak with someone as an equal rather than as an adversary, a bold move, is incredibly short sighted. (I find it rather funny that this Bishop would offer such a posture of obedience then go on later to disobey, how ironic).

I know I will get a long litany about how I am wrong about all these points. The fact remains that the past exist in the past, we cannot change it nor erase its effects. We can either kick around every negative point, real or perceived, or attempt to work as a Church and find a common solution. Yes obstacles will appear, for both sides, but with reliance in the Holy Spirit we can and will find a solution to the problems we are facing.

This all or nothing ideology is one major contributor to the declining numbers of converts, not the actual teachings of the Church but the attitude of the believers. If we keep showing the world that we cannot even unite on the Liturgy, what else are we not going to be able to agree on?


who cried disobedience?


Unity in liturgy does not mean everyone has to do the same thing.

The Church understood that…until 1970.


Giving someone a pectoral cross who isn’t a bishop?

Sorry, the “archbishop” of Canterbury isn’t an equal to the pope in terms of episcopal dignity. He’s not a bishop. He’s not a priest. Episcopal orders were declared invalid by Leo XIII.

Popes don’t give out pectoral crosses as souvenirs. Pectoral crosses have significance. They are an outward sign of the episcopal dignity and rank.


I was wondering…what is the purpose of this whole discussion?

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