A little rant......

I have to blow off some steam…

It seems to me that I have run into more and more “cafeteria” catholics who haven’t gotta a clue on what catholicism is or what the entire faith is about.

I said to this “fellow” catholic that there were over 88,000 abortions commited in NYC alone in 2005. What do you think about that? He states what wrong with that? WHAT?:eek: I couldn’t believe my ears. So I prodded him more and asked about suicide. He states there is nothing wrong with it if people “can’t take it anymore” I am spinning now. Then I go on to say what the catholic faith’s stance is and he will hear none of it. He states he will not let an old man, a nazi, in the vatican tell him what to do. Then he starts firing insults at me. All kinds of F U’s and a gammout of other jibberish. I felt like telling him he shouldn’t even dare recieve the Eucharist, but I thought it wasn’t my place and it would only throw gas on the fire. Then the litany of insults with the validity of the scripture, indulgences, and the usual list.

I am kind of happy to be “insulted” for the Lord’s sake! :smiley:

I cannot believe the audacity of some people who proclaim they are catholic and have absolutely NO CLUE what catholicism is all about!

Sorry for the rant. I needed to tell someone how ridiculous some self proclaimed “catholics” are.

No problem…rant all ya want!
But welcome to the real world…there are tons of “catholics” like that out there in the real world>!>!

Catholic “In Name Only”. Too many blabbermouths like him around. Let us pray…

To which periodical did this guy subscribe to get his theology, The National Catholic Reporter, America Magazine, or was it perhaps something with bunny ears as a logo?

I do not do well in that type of situation. Here, in these forms, I have found myself being less than charitable when dealing with these types of situations. I think that I have gotten better; however, I know that I still have room for improvement. Now… if I slip-up here (where all I have to do is click a mouse and close a window to avoid a bad situation), how much more difficult is it when you are standing in front of a person who begins to defend his misguided beliefs by slinging profanity at you. I may have had him by the throat before he could complete the profanely offensive phrase. I applaud you on your self-control. God bless.

Quandry.

At what point does a person cease being Catholic?

I ask because I was baptised and raised Catholic and left in early adulthood. I have often been told by Catholics that I will always be Catholic, no matter what, barring excomunication, because of my baptism.

On the other hand, others say they are Catholic, but because their beliefs or actions are not in accordance with Catholic beliefs and teachings, “Good” Catholics say…they are not really Catholics or should not call themselves Catholics.

Is there any Church teaching about what makes a person a Catholic, or at what point one ceases to be Catholic either by explicit or implicit rejection of the teachings and practices of the faith?

Personally, I felt that when I was no longer in a state of belief nor striving to believe and live the teachings of the faith that I ceased to be Catholic.

On the other hand, I’ve also been told by many Catholics that I never really was Catholic, even when I did strive to believe and live the faith, because no one who is a true Catholic would never leave the faith. So…I’m confused about the Church’s actual stance on these matters.

thanks,
cheddar

I think that these are the relevant sections from the Catechism of the Catholic Church to answer your question: (highlighted boldface mine)

An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.84 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.85

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) "for the day of redemption."86 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."87 The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

Faith

2087 Our moral life has its source in faith in God who reveals his love to us. St. Paul speaks of the "obedience of faith"9 as our first obligation. He shows that “ignorance of God” is the principle and explanation of all moral deviations.10 Our duty toward God is to believe in him and to bear witness to him.

**2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11**

So, in brief, once one is baptized, that person is configured to Christ in a unique way that (even if he ends up in hell) will mark him forever as a Christian (or Catholic). But we must persevere in the faith. Certainly, there will be struggles and doubts that come. There will be failings. Some manage to work through them. Others don’t. Many will live in ways or even advocate ideas which are seperate from fidelity, while convincing themselves that this is fine and unproblematic to a practice of Catholicism. Outright rejection of articles of faith may place one in bad standing with the unity of the faith. If this is taken to an extreme, one can place himself outside of the faith through heresy, apostacy, schism, even excommunication. But that indelible mark remains, nonetheless.

Keep ranting…I often feel the same way when confronted with this issue from fellow Catholics (including other members of my family). It’s makes you want to scream but indeed we do need to be charitable about it. Thanks for venting - believe me it does help to know that others are in the battle against this subtle evil.

thank you chicago.

cheddar

I would have quoted St Augustine:
“There is absolutely no circumstance where a Christian is justified in taking his own life.”

But that would have been as you say, more gas on the fire.

What gets to me is that amongst Catholics, the ‘faithful’ always seem to be overwhelmingly outnumbered by those cafeteria catholics. Very sad really.

Stand tall, be strong, be faithful.

Here is a web site I found recently. They might help you at least understand haw serious and widespread the problem of dissent can be.

ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/

you sound like me talking about my own mother. She’s even a Eucharistic Minister and she’s pro-abortion. I end up spitting when she starts blathering on about how I’m stuck up because she just couldn’t stand by and have a friend beaten by her husband if/when he should find out she was having an affair and got pregnant. :eek: I’ve learned to just avoid talking to my mother about these issues, but she knows my stance and I won’t back down.

When they start in on you like that… for everything they say that’s wrong with the Church, just look at them, smile and say “I’ll keep you in my prayers when I go to Mass. Sounds like the Communion of Saints can help you out, so I’ll ensure to enlist their help.”

Thanks for venting though… makes me feel a bit better knowing I’m not the only one, especially knowing I’m not the only one with family members like this.

I find myself on a weird line as I don’t think abortion is right. Suicide is wrong. And Sex before marriage ruins marriage

BUT

That is how I choose to live my life and I support laws that legalize abortion because I think people should be allowed to live by their values not mine.

What I want is a society where people choose not to get an abortion because its wrong, not because its illegal.

I want a society where people don’t make any decisions based on things being illegal. Nothing should be illegal–not murder, not stealing, not rape. Reward and punishment–that’s such a low level of moral thinking.

This reductio ad absurdam was brought to you by the Hastrman foundation.:cool:

Pax tecum!

That is absolutely ridiculous! Would you also support laws to legalize rape and child pornography? What about legalizing theft and murder while we’re at it? After all, I just choose to live my life without doing these things, but I think people should be allowed to live by their values, not mine. :rolleyes: If their values say those things are all right, then it’s fine by me! :rolleyes:

Do you realize that by supporting laws that keep abortion legal, you are coming dangerously close to excommunicating yourself? If you support legalized abortion, then the blood of those children is on your hands just as much as those who perform the abortions.

People won’t think that abortion is wrong if it’s still legal.

In Christ,
Rand

Jay,
hope you feel better now! I understand your frustration totally. Just remember… Matthew 5

…and Matthew 13 …those “weeds” among us do serve a purpose in God’s economy of salvation.

This why my two favorite saints are Saint Fiacre and Saint Nicolas. Saint Fiacre is the patron saint of hemmrhoids and Saint Nicolas (yes,** that** Saint Nicolas) punched Arius in the nose at the Council of Nicea.

So when I meet the kind of “Catholics” described in some of these posts, I simply murmer “Saint Fiacre, help me.” And take comfort in the thought that if he doesn’t come through, I’ve got Saint Nicolas in reserve.:smiley:

It used to be illegal for a white and a black to be married.

Is it wrong because the law says so? No

Just because something is illegal does not make it wrong.

Cigarettes are legal yet they only do harm.

What is right and wrong is not determined by laws. But I think that you glossed over my point about wanting society not only laws to change before you started on your soapbox rant…

Do you think laws should contradict reason and the natural law?

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