I am very supportive of the GLBT community so don’t misunderstand my question here. Is it just me or has there been an increase in the amount of threads having to do with gay this, gay that, etc.? If there has been an increase do you think it reflects the non-judgemental attitude and openess in which Pope Francis has approached the subject? I am happy to see a more free flowing discussion on this subject on Catholic Answers… but of course it could just be a perception. There seems to be a lot more ‘progressive’ talk ? Id be interested in other peoples take on this…
I think it’s a cultural thing, Mr. Ferguson. Gay issues have been pushed to the forefront by self-professed “rights activists” in Europe and America, and have become a major public preoccupation. Where I come from, gay rights barely register on the radar, because we have much more important fish to fry.
I always wonder why the governments in the west are so keen on pushing this issue. Perhaps by entertaining the masses and focusing their intentions on it they are more free to deal with other things.
I think there is a lot of talk about gay stuff here because faithful Catholics are struggling to find a way to deal with this trend. To be charitable to those with SSA but to not embrace their sin, what to do when uncomfortable situations arise at work, etc. Those who support the so-called gay marriage quickly lose interest in discussion because this is quite an orthodox forum and their ideas are rejected.
Personally, I can’t wait for this topic to become yesterday’s news. I’m so tired of it all and normally don’t participate in such treads. Not sure why this one picked my interest.
The following is simply my opinion, take with a grain of salt.
Conversation about homosexual issues is over-represented because the issue triggers a natural revulsion, especially in men. Because of this revulsion, we lash out disproportionately on this issue. Not that the issue is not serious. It is serious, it is just not disproportionately serious in relation to other issues, and in relation to the whole person. Francis would like us to keep our passions in check on both sides of this important issue. He would like us to follow Church teaching on sexuality, and on the other hand, he would like us to resist our temptation to turn revulsion into selective judgmentalism. It’s good to take the whole person in context, not just his/her sexuality.
Is this a progressive viewpoint?, Nnnnooo I don’t think so, it’s just Catholic.
I think people want to treat gay people w/love, but also want to do the right thing according to our faith.
Of course, there would be more “gay talk,” give how much more “gay talk” is occurring in our culture.
It’s really hard to avoid the topic these days and our kids are dealing with this issue a lot earlier than a lot of us would like.
The Pope didn’t say anything new about Catholic teaching when he made his remarks about loving gay people. Of course, we should love gay people. We should love everyone, regardless whether they are gay or not. That doesn’t mean that we should encourage people to live contrary to the faith.
What’s “new” or “news” is that he focused on the love and mercy part of the gospel instead of the hell and damnation part. The thing is that the gospel talks about both and a lot of people tend to pick and choose the pieces that they want to listen to, instead of paying attention to the gospel as a whole.
When Jesus-was-married-Da-Vinci-Code was dominating the news and advancing various threats or misrepresentations to Christianity, those kind of threads dominated. There’s nothing unique about the topic of homosexuality, other than it is currently dominating the governments of many states and news headlines.
Pope Francis has asked us Catholics to avoid limiting our talk to just gay marriage and abortion.
When he has spoken out about homosexuality, what he has said has been misinterpreted by a number of people. When he said we should treat homosexuals well and respectfully, he was in no way suggesting he, or we, condone it.
Further, some people misunderstand what we mean when we say “judgemental” or “non-judgemental”. “Non-judgemental” means not to judge, say, not to judge the person in the sense of thinking if we were in that scenario, we wouldn’t fall. We don’t know all a person suffers. Further, we can’t say if that person will go to heaven or not.
Some, today, misinterpret this and will say, “I’m gay and want to get married. Stop judging me!” No, there are even a few cases we may have a moral **obligation **for fraternal correction.
We are to love the sinner, hate the sin. Where possible, we are to discourage people from sin and encourage them to come into a state of grace, repent.
Getting back to your original post, your very first sentence had me a bit concerned. I looked on your profile and saw you listed yourself as “Catholic”.
I guess I wondered how one could be Catholic and be “supportive” of GLBT at the same time.
In the Catechism of the Catholic Church 2357 it says,
… "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.“142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under** no** circumstances can they be approved…”
By being supportive, we become guilty of that same sin, sort of like watching someone commit a crime and not trying to report, or stop, it. We become accomplices.
For instance, if we were to be invited to a same-sex “marriage”, as Catholics, we would be obligated not to go. If ever asked advice, we would be expected to be supportive of the Catholic position rather than that of GLBT.
To be a good practicing Catholic, you can be supportive of GLBT people but not their sins.
Along those lines, there is a difference between having good judgment, cultivating good judgment, speaking to others about it, and on the other hand being judgmental. It’s two different things.
When Francis says “Who am I to judge”, if you ask me, the most important part of that sentence is "Who am I…? The answer for all of us in the first place is, we are sinners. We have that in common with gay people, even though we may not share the same specific sins.
If we can find this common ground, it becomes impossible for us to cast judgment on the disposition of a person’s soul. Francis’ question draws us to find common ground with all people, not look for the peculiar ways they will find damnation. If we find this common ground, others might even listen to us in a discussion about the beauty of marriage, rather than immediately rejecting us.
Pope Francis referred to the Catechism when he spoke of what he meant by judging. I would submit the following:*CCC#1861 although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.*We can judge homosexual behaviors and political pressures as imprudent. We needn’t judge anyone’s soul.
This is it exactly. There but for the Grace of God go I. We all give in to whatever sin tempts us away from God.
And we all have different strengths and weaknesses. Even we heterosexuals have no guarantee that we won’t fall into adultery or fornication given the circumstances and our frame of mind at the time.
So I like your notion of sin, even grave sin, being common ground we have with gays. We should concentrate on working out our own salvation with trembling and fear. That should be a big enough load on our shoulders without taking on someone else’s.
In my opinion, it’s because the ones with the money are interested in it, and so the government responds to this source of donors. If the elites saw it with nothing but revulsion, I’m pretty sure the problem would be different.
Good question ClearWater I will try to do my best in responding. When I said I am supportive of GLBT I realized that it might of been read as I support the politics. I meant that I support gay, lesbians, bisexual and transgendered people as I know and work with those wonderful human beings. I do support the state making laws that work for the state and our role should be to ensure that state policy do not deny the freedom of religion for all of us including Muslim’s, New Agers, etc…would you say that as Catholics we should work to prevent freedom of religion for our Muslim brothers and sisters?
Our faith, in my mind, is a personal decision. We cannot nor should not enforce our views on national policy. I am Canadian so we have had same sex marriage as the law of the land for over 10 years now… and my perception as a Canadian catholic is that our church is more upset about abortion, mercy killing than we are about gay rights; it’s not an issue to most Canadian Catholics. Our beliefs are based on conscience…we are only capable of sinning if we are aware or honestly believe what we are doing (and we know this by our own conscience) is sinful (in that it separates us from God)
Being supportive of gay rights and respecting the wishes of gay people to be represented equally in the law are two different things. I am reflective of a respect for freedom for individuals and I don’t see any reason to deny people a state defined gay marriage… that is not the same thing as a gay sacrament…if you know what I mean. I do not believe the state should be the vehicle to enforce Catholic belief…I do believe we should understand our own theology and the development of the catholic teaching on homosexuality and leave it to the conscience of people … .kind of what like Jesus said that if a village doesn’t accept your message, let it go, wipe the dust off your feet and go to the next village…
I disagree. I would go out of respect…just as I would attend an Anglican, Jewish, Buddhist or New Age wedding… I am not endorsing I am simply respecting the choice of a couple. If God does not deny us our free will, why would I deny others their free will…God respects our free will and I respect the free will of choices people make even if I don’t agree. Do you show disrespect to President Obama just cause you disagree with his policy…you know what I am saying…
To be a good practicing Catholic, you can be supportive of GLBT people but not their sins.
Well I agree with that statement , but it sounds too evangelical/pentacostal… its as bad a saying as “pray the gay away”
Hope that puts my thinking into perspective. I look forward to your thoughts… take care
I skimmed through the 277 pages of topics for this forum. It seems that Abortion and Birth Control have been the most popular areas of discussion since this forum opened in 2004. Threads on homosexuality are peppered here and there, but it seems that it wasn’t until 2012 that there was a rather significant increase in the occurrence of the threads.
This is the impression I got from skimming through the pages. I thought about letting an automated script do a more objective analysis. But I know that some system administrators don’t like to see things like that scanning their forums, so I’ve left that alone.
Hello ThinkingSapien… you have honoured your handle name and actually surveyed the documentation… I never thought of doing that… being the “non-thinking” and “spontaneous” Sapien that I be Yes, I can’t remember how long I have been on this line… but yeah… I have seen an increase in the frequency. Since Francis spoke his view, I think people feel more free to delve into the subject much more and learn what the church actually teaches on the subject.
I also not that we have moved from a “pray the gay” borrowed from right wing Christianity and moved towards more of a balanced and authentic understanding grounded in Catholicism…and that I like…