A lot of questions.

Hello friends

I’m from India and a Protestant-Christian of Baptist faith. I was born a Hindu and was always attracted to the teachings of Christ. Somehow it compelled me to believe that no way could you reach salvation by praying to hundreds of gods and goddesses. I’m not against anyone because of their religion but I strongly believe the only way your soul could be saved is through Jesus.

I joined this forum to shoot a few questions directly to the Catholics. Forgive me if I sound a bit harsh but I fail to agree with Catholic doctrine even though I’m fully aware Catholics pray to the same Jesus as we (Protestants) do. What I’m here is to find common ground however for a True Protestant, it’s really difficult to treat a Catholic as a “brother in faith”. I wouldn’t use the harsh terminology Protestants throw at Catholics calling you “a corrupt church” and “perverting the Scripture” etc. (Sorry if I have used harsh language at your own forum but I’m just telling it the way it is).

1.First point of difference, Catholics don’t use or can’t use the King James Version of Bible. Anyone who’s read the KJV will tell you it’s majestic and since it was based directly on Textus Receptus and older Hebrew manuscripts, the most accurate Bible. God’s word is synonymous with KJV. Other translations such as NIV, NAB, ESV - I’m not judging them but they are inaccurate at so many levels. The meanings change, the KJV is the most divinely inspired Bible in the world.

  1. Same goes with the Apocypha which you consider as part of the Bible, 1 and 2 Maccabees etc. I don’t see how we can ever agree on basic differences in Scripture.

  2. From there we get down to the meaningless rituals such as feast for the saints, praying for the souls of your dead ancestors, venerating Saints, appointing the Pope as God’s representative on Earth, Mass ceremonies,

  3. From there we get down to concepts like Purgatory which would appear blasphemous to Protestant ears.

  4. Confession boxes, priests calling themselves “fathers” and priests and nuns remaining celibate for their whole lives…the KJV tells me that Jesus wants you to marry and be fruitful and not lead an ascetic’s life.

Scriptural differences aside, the Catholics are a lot more tolerant of diverse belief systems such as Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. As a Bible-reading Christian, I would tell a Muslim he’s going to Hell for worshiping a false God called allah. Hindus are going to hell for worshiping Rama, Krishna etc. However the Catholics and especially the current Pope has embraced new age religions saying “there may be many ways to Heaven”.

In my humble opinion, Catholicism is a much shallower faith than Protestant and especially Baptist Christianity.

I’m sorry again if I used harsh words but what I have written are the general feelings of KJV-Bible reading Protestants on the subject of Catholicism.

So let me summarize it, Christianity should be rather simple --> You’re a Christian = You follow God’s word = God’s word is in the Bible = You read the Bible and live a Christian life. End of story, all the rituals and meaningless rites of Catholism, I don’t understand where they fit in here.

Golly…we believe that same thing and have for 2,000 years.

I joined this forum to shoot a few questions directly to the Catholics.

That’s fine, though all in one post like this is not the preferred way to do that. Did you look over the Forum Rules that you signed off on when you joined? That and this link will save you much confusion and hassle, so i hope you’ll check them out. :slight_smile:

Forgive me if I sound a bit harsh but I fail to agree with Catholic doctrine even though I’m fully aware Catholics pray to the same Jesus as we (Protestants) do.

Why be harsh? Is that the image of Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ that you find in the New Testament?

What I’m here is to find common ground however for a True Protestant, it’s really difficult to treat a Catholic as a “brother in faith”. I wouldn’t use the harsh terminology Protestants throw at Catholics calling you “a corrupt church” and “perverting the Scripture” etc. (Sorry if I have used harsh language at your own forum but I’m just telling it the way it is)

Understood. We see it often…even here at CAF and I think you’ll find that unlike what many n-Cs say, we probably know the Bible as well as you do (I’m pretty sure that I do anyway. See My Testimony) and can respond to anything that you come up with, so I urge you to keep and open mind, get the facts and decide for yourself.

1.First point of difference, Catholics don’t use or can’t use the King James Version of Bible. Anyone who’s read the KJV will tell you it’s majestic and since it was based directly on Textus Receptus and older Hebrew manuscripts, the most accurate Bible. God’s word is synonymous with KJV. Other translations such as NIV, NAB, ESV - I’m not judging them but they are inaccurate at so many levels. The meanings change, the KJV is the most divinely inspired Bible in the world.

Sorry, but you’re wrong right off the top on this. Catholics can use a KJB, but why would we when teh Douay-Rheims Bible came out 2 years before it and has that same “majestic” period English, not to mention it has all the books that were in use in Jesus’ day, since the Alexandrian text of the OT was in use in Israel. One thing you may not know is that over 90% of the New Testament quotes of the OT are actually taken from that same Septuagint. Of the 340 places where the NT quotes the OT only 33 are from the Hebrew text. For documentation, I refer you to Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament: A Complete Survey by Gleason Archer & G.C Chirichigno Moody Press 1983, Chicago.

Errors? I wouldn’t assert what you have about the KJV, especially since it contains the glaring copyist error in the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew 6:13, which reads '13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: ** For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen**." That last line…the doxology is nowhere in any of the oldest and best manuscripts of the New Testament, and is, in fact taken from a non-canonical early church source called the DIDACHE: Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (See chapter 8:2) It is often mentioned in notes, but is never part of the best NT Greek texts.

Are you what some people call a “King James Onlyist”?

  1. Same goes with the Apocypha which you consider as part of the Bible, 1 and 2 Maccabees etc. I don’t see how we can ever agree on basic differences in Scripture.

Sorry, but there are no “Apocryphal” writings in the Catholic Bible. the term is often misused by various n-Cs. Apocryphal writings are those penned by Gnostics and other heretical sects and were rejected by the Catholic Church when the canon of scripture was decided in the 4th century.

As for the KJB…I assume you mean that you cherish the 1611 edition of it, which is fine, but you might want to get an authentic copy of it. The Holy Bible : 1611 Edition - King James Version in which you’ll find all the books we have were translated and included until they were removed in the mid 1800s by a “Bible Society” as a cost cutting measure.

The Deutreocanonical books were in the same Alexandrian text of the scriptures that was in use in Israel in Our Lord’s time because Greek was the lingua franca of the day and no one spoke Hebrew in Israel…they spoke Aramaic, which is why you have so many names and sayings in the NT in Aramaic. (Example:Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabacthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?)
(Cont’d)

St. Paul thinks otherwise…have you read 1Cor 7?

Here are excerpts…32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

Scriptural differences aside, the Catholics are a lot more tolerant of diverse belief systems such as Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism.

You may get that perception…and actually, it is written in the Bible that Jesus desires the salvation of all…not just Christians…so Catholics embrace this by praying for the salvation of all…so that those not Christians come to realize the teachings of Christ.

As a Bible-reading Christian, I would tell a Muslim he’s going to Hell for worshiping a false God called allah. Hindus are going to hell for worshiping Rama, Krishna etc.

If you told a Muslim, or Hindu that they are going to Hell…are they actually going to start listening to you? Or they would get mad at you would be their first reaction?

However the Catholics and especially the current Pope has embraced new age religions saying “there may be many ways to Heaven”.

I think and I would strongly suggest that you read and actually understand the Pope’s words.

In my humble opinion, Catholicism is a much shallower faith than Protestant and especially Baptist Christianity.

I think if you stay here long…you will reverse this opinion of yours for after all, the Catholic faith is 2000 years old.

This is what one protestant actually discovered:

star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m1/sctcnv.html

A little while later Gerry called and said, “Listen, I’m a little scared. My friends are a little scared. We ought to really take this seriously. I talked to Doctor John Gerstner, this Harvard-trained Presbyterian, anti-Catholic theologian . He will meet with us as long as we want.” We arranged Gerry, Dr. Gerstner and me for a six hour session, going through the Old Testament in Hebrew, the New Testament in Greek, and the council documents of Church history. At the end of six hours, Gerry and I expected to be completely blown out of the water by this genius. Instead, what we discovered was that the Catholic Church almost doesn’t even need a defense. It’s more like a lion; just let it out of its cage and it takes care of itself. We just presented the Church’s teachings and showed the text in Scripture, and we didn’t feel like he had answered a single one of our questions or objections.

So let me summarize it, Christianity should be rather simple --> You’re a Christian = You follow God’s word = God’s word is in the Bible = You read the Bible and live a Christian life…

Well…let me put it this way…prior to the protestant rebellion in the 1500s or so…there only one Church. If you asked someone on the streets then, what church do you belong…the answer would be the catholic church.

But after the protestant rebellion and the fracturing it caused…there are now over 20,000 individual protestant denoms each with their own flavor of what Christianity should be…and their different ideas and theologies.

End of story, all the rituals and meaningless rites of Catholism, I don’t understand where they fit in here

These rites are part of our Sacred Tradition…mark-shea.com/tradition.html

Sacred Tradition is the living and growing truth of Christ contained, not only in Scripture, but in the common teaching, common life, and common worship of the Church.

In other words, these rituals are part of the faith that was handed down to us by the Apostles…they are part of our common worship…:wink:
[/quote]

No real bible scholar would say the King James Version is the most accurate. It’s not even the oldest English version of the Bible. In addition, the original King James Version contained the Maccabees and other Catholic bible books in it.

  1. From there we get down to the meaningless rituals such as feast for the saints,

I’ll answer this harsh remark directly from the Word of God.[FONT=Palatino Linotype] [/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype]Romans 14: [4] Who art thou that judgest another man’ s servant? To his own lord he standeth or falleth. And he shall stand: for God is able to make him stand. [5] For one judgeth between day and day: and another judgeth every day: let every man abound in his own sense.[6] He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord. And he that eateth, eateth to the Lord: for he giveth thanks to God. And he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth thanks to God. [7] For none of us liveth to himself; and no man dieth to himself. [8] For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; or whether we die, we die unto the Lord. Therefore, whether we live, or whether we die, we are the Lord’s.

praying for the souls of your dead ancestors,

That the Christian faith prays for their dead is found right in the New Testament in 1st Corinthians 15, where it says " [29] Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?" And even the Jews to this day offer prayers for their dead. The Bible also teaches this plainly in 2nd Maccabees 12 where it says, "[39] And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. [40] And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. [41] Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. [42] And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. [43] And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, [44] (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) [45] And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. [/FONT]

venerating Saints,

Again…what is wrong with this? Is it anywhere forbidden in the Word of God? No…in fact it is not. In fact, many places we see the scriptures naming individuals who have lived a holy life. I have a blog article that will shed even more light on this, so see The Intercession & Communion of Saints

appointing the Pope as God’s representative on Earth,

You elect a pastor…so do we. The apostolic succession we practice has a direct line back to the apostles, something that no modern community (like you Baptists) can say.See my article What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like?

Mass ceremonies,

here you have really messed up and displayed a typical ignorance of both the Catholic faith and the Word of God. I would suggest (if you are really sincere in seeking the truth) that you obtain copy of Dr. Edward Sri’s excellent book A Biblical Walk Through the Mass which I have here to hand and have studied with a number of other Catholics in my parish. You will find that everything from the opening sign of the cross to the final “Thanks be to God” is found in the Word of God.
(Cont’d)

  1. From there we get down to concepts like Purgatory which would appear blasphemous to Protestant ears

It would help you greatly if you even understood what you oppose here. See Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

  1. Confession boxes,

We don’t necessarily use confessionals all the time…but you wouldn’t know that. I suspect that you are trying to oppose out sacramental confession, which as my following articles will show is quote thoroughly scriptural. Catholic Confession and Scriptures About Penance

priests calling themselves “fathers”

Man…you are going to prove to be the personification of Our Blessed Lord’s words Matthew 22:29
And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.

See Call No Man “Father”? & Call No Man “Holy Father”!

and priests and nuns remaining celibate for their whole lives. the KJV tells me that Jesus wants you to marry and be fruitful and not lead an ascetic’s life.

Does it? How odd since I have read the New Testament closely many times over and here’s what I have found Priestly celibacy is unBiblical. NOT!

Scriptural differences aside, the Catholics are a lot more tolerant of diverse belief systems such as Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. As a Bible-reading Christian, I would tell a Muslim he’s going to Hell for worshiping a false God called allah. Hindus are going to hell for worshiping Rama, Krishna etc. However the Catholics and especially the current Pope has embraced new age religions saying "there may be many ways to Heaven"

. do you always believe everything you are told and read? can you show me where Pope Francis made this statement? I don’t believe that you can and even if you do it will prove to have been taken completely out of context. I’ll make it a bit easier for you to locate it with a link to a source right here on CAF. Sticky: [Akin]
(Cont’d)

In my humble opinion, Catholicism is a much shallower faith than Protestant and especially Baptist Christianity.

:shrug: That’s your opinion and grossly ill informed to boot so perhaps, if you are really seeking truth and if you are willing to look at all I have supplied you with so far you will reconsider and question your previous sources. If you find that they have misled you in these matters, then I would urge you to ask yourself where else they have done so.

I’m sorry again if I used harsh words but what I have written are the general feelings of KJV-Bible reading Protestants on the subject of Catholicism.

As I said before, you’re not the first person to come at us with this sort of stuff. In fact, we’ve been responding and refuting this kind of thing for 500 years, so it’s nothing new. It is unfortunate however, that you seem comfortable being so harsh when the Word of God tells us, " [FONT=Palatino Linotype][10] For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile.[11] Let him decline from evil, and do good: let him seek after peace and pursue it: [12] Because the eyes of the Lord are upon the just, and his ears unto their prayers: but the countenance of the Lord upon them that do evil things. [13] And who is he that can hurt you, if you be zealous of good? [14] But if also you suffer any thing for justice’ sake, blessed are ye. And be not afraid of their fear, and be not troubled. [15] But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.[16] But with modesty and fear, having a good conscience: that whereas they speak evil of you, they may be ashamed who falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. [17] For it is better doing well (if such be the will of God) to suffer, than doing ill." (1st Peter 3)[/FONT]

So let me summarize it, Christianity should be rather simple --> You’re a Christian = You follow God’s word = God’s word is in the Bible = You read the Bible and live a Christian life. End of story, all the rituals and meaningless rites of Catholism, I don’t understand where they fit in here.

Again…you need to tone the rhetoric down a bit if you intend to hang around here and learn anything. Consider this…would you appreciate it if someone came into you home and adopted your kind of tone with you about your religion?

To be painfully honest, as you’ve been, your assertions are just repetitions of standard-brand low-brow Protestant-think, aka ignorance. Protestantism has very few thinkers on par with the Catholic and Orthodox Churches so reformed theology et al ends up a mile wide, with much disagreement between Protestant “brothers”, and about an inch deep at most. Textus Receptus? KJV as the most accurate translation? I’d recommend doing some serious study, for yourself, before venturing into forums like this one-any scholar worthy of the title, both Protestant and Catholic alike, would laugh you out of the water.

True

Understandable. Recognize that Protestants who came about in the 16th century, have their own faith, and they have taught that faith to you.

Again it’s all understandable, because Protestants run the gammet of beliefs. That’s why there are over 30,000 denominations of Protestants all teaching their own version of what the bible says. And they All claim to be led by the bible alone as their sole source of truth. The Holy Spirit is NOT behind all that confusion.

Have you not seen all the controversy and disagreements swirling around the Textus Receptus among protestants? It’s dizzying.

Isn’t that a contradiction of terms?

There is an apocrypha, but Maccabees isn’t in it.

My ancestors aren’t dead. Neither are the saints. The body is mortal it has a beginning and an end. The body dies, the soul otoh, is immortal. It has a beginning and no end. It lives forever. :slight_smile: As soon as the body dies the soul is immediately judged. That person knows then, where they will spend eternity. Either heaven or hell. And eternity begins at the death of the body.The soul has memory intellect and will fully functional forever… That’s how a soul can enjoy paradise or if damned, suffer for an eternity in hell. That’s how a soul is able to process the realities of the next life. It’s not asleep in the ground waiting for the 2nd coming. That might be a billion years from now. OTOH, when the 2nd coming occurs, all the bodies rise, and are reunited with the soul. If the soul was in heaven it is now in heaven body and soul. If the soul was in hell, it is now in hell body and soul… for all eternity.

It seems blasphemous to them because they’ve been told it is. And since they don’t know scripture they assume they’ve been told the truth.They’re wrong.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 if you have questions ask away.

Keep in mind you’re approaching this entire subject with sever bias, put there by your protestant teachers.

Jesus established the Catholic Church. And with it he made some fantastic promises to her. One is John20:23 :slight_smile: Yeah it’s fact. Obviously Jesus isn’t trying to confuse things. He’s establishing this sacrament because it’s necessary. Jesus doesn’t do useless things. He doesn’t institute useless sacraments.[/FONT]

So far you’ve gotten everything wrong. Now here’s the rest of the story.

You do realize Protestants are in schism and heresy? Protestantism was invented in the 16th century by revolting from Our Lord’s Church that He established and gave all His promises to in the 1st century. Division from the Church He established is condemned forever! There is no expiration date to the condemnation. Rom 16:17-21. & Gal 5: 19-21

He does not simply teach us of the way; He is the Way, the Word made flesh.
He is our Saviour and our Redeemer, dying on the cross that we might live.
Through His resurrection, He has made it possible for all of us to join in the eternal choir of angels and saints, sharing in the glory of being face to face with God.
He established His Church so that we may come together in love and through the grace of the Holy Spirit, to know Him more fully.
It is not doing His will, to contribute to the fracturing of His Church.
I am only speaking here of my understanding and welcome you to directly read about and ultimately participate in the Church.

Has the OP been back?

CM pretty much refuted everything he said and gave him plenty of information to delve into. Perhaps he is looking into it and some seeds have been planted. Or he may be going to some anti-Catholic websites to try and “refute” what CM has provided, which of course can’t be done.

Either way, I look forward to a response. I always love it when a newbie comes on to this forum throwing bombs only to have them fizzle out with a little dose of Catholic truth.

The OP hasn’t been back since 12:11 AM on Jan 29. I bet he won’t be back.

It seems to me that posters like him “join for a day” to tell us how wrong/awful/stupid we are; spew for a post or two, then move on. Kind of like a guy that hits you with a sucker punch then runs like heck so you can’t hit him back.

Yup. He sure told US, didn’t he?

I hope he comes back, but I’m not holding my breath.

It could be 1 of 2 possibilites
[LIST=1]
*]it’s a drive by sniper
*]they saw the responses and didn’t have the ammo to engage.
[/LIST] Either way, we probably won’t see them again. But since this is a world wide website, lots of people can see what the answers are to the charges

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