A person has taken LSD

and is experiencing it’s effects and receives Holy Communion.

Tell me what affects if any this would have.

In this particular senario, the person did not take the drug intentionally.

Was any grace conferred? Did/could Jesus enter a person while in this state?

I have more questions, but this is a good starting place for now.

Drugs are totally messed. I can’t really reply to your question directly, but I’ve had similar expiriences.

I’ve struggled with drug addiction/ alchoholism my self pretty bad over the years. Once I took a LSD substitute like-drug as 9:00pm and was still tripping the next day at 7:00am WHEN I HAD TO SERVE MASS. I was an alter boy back then. I remeber seeing the words of the lecture I was holding for the preist creep off the pages of the book and spill themselves across the priest’s robe. If it happened now adays there’s no chance I would be able to hold it together.

However, I’ve heard of people “finding God” when under the influence of powerful psychedelics, and this seems legit as some of them were actually drug dealers that sold the rest of their stash including their scale, bong, etc, and totally changed their life around. Although some of them eventually reverted to the previous lifestyle, some actually did give up everything they knew or were for following Jesus and remained that way.

I don’t really know if this has anything to do with what you originally posted, but all I can say is the relationship between Jesus and psychedelics is … well, weird.

Is it an experience where you feel or believe he is there, or is he remote and possibly a distant observer?

Your imput is very helpful to me.

The LSD is irrelevant in this situation.

This person might be in a State of Grace, or s/he might not. This is the ONLY thing that is relevant here. And nobody (except God) knows for sure, but the LSD is certainly not a deciding factor one way or another, if this person was not even aware of taking it.

If this person is NOT in a State of Grace (the LSD notwithstanding) then his/her reception of the Sacrament is a sacrilege and will cause this person more harm than good (1Cor 11:27).

If this person IS in a State of Grace then the Sacrament will nourish and fortify his/her soul (the LSD notwithstanding).

There is nothing in Catholic theology that says that we are excluded from receiving Sacramental Grace if we are stoned at the time, provided we are in a State of Grace. FWIW, the Sacrament is routinely (and validly) administered to terminally ill medical patients who are under the influence of a variety of drugs and who may be barely cognizant of their surroundings.

I know you’ll hate this answer, but it’s both. Sometimes when you feel yourself on the edge of lethal overdose, you cry for God, and he comes. Like many people, I always find myself looking for God when I feel the end is near.

The thing with pychs is if you have a bad trip, you always reach out for God wether you’re about to die or not—maybe becuase you always think your about to die during a bad trip. Maybe the fact that were still here is proof enough that he does, indeed, exisist. Then again maybe it was gut reaction that we pray for salvation during what we think is the hour of our death.

Honestly I don’t know, and I find myself put into this position where I must place a bet. If I’m an agonstic, then I believe in “something.” But what if God in the bible is the literal true God, and by me being a “lukewarm” beliver as is said in the bible, I will be cast to hell. So the alternative is to believe and serve the true God whole heartedly. Maybe that means forsaking my family whom aren’t true believers, or my very close freinds who are the same. Maybe it means giving up everything I loved and known.

That’s why I hate being a “true Christian” because it means forsaking eveything I thought I once loved. (Edited) Maybe the Fundamentalists have it right in detaching themselves from all worldly things in reverence for God, but I struggle with such a notion, and therefore I hate God and hate myself.

Perhaps I’ll struggle with this flaw until I die or until the rapture when I’ll see hell, and see that my struggle was just another instance of human pride. But until that day, I drink and drink some more, because I can’t handle the truth or the notion of what may be true.

Again, this doesn’t answer your question directly, but maybe it’ll help you in some way. And if not (Edited).

There are so many things to talk about in the post you so generously offered to explain to me. I have to say, that there is nothing to hate about your reply because it is your reply to a situation. I have no life experience of LSD or of God. Yet, you bring up some new areas of topics yet to be explored further here. Thank you for helping me sharpen up my thinking skills a bit.

I ask because I wonder about the soul.

So far, we have heard that Psychotropic drugs can effect us.

But, how does it effect us really? And the soul?

Did you change your post? I swear it was different the first time I read it.

to answer your question though, psychotropic drugs will most likly make a WELL EDUCATED believer go partially insane. But you want to know the real insanity? It’s if you think this insanity brught about by worldly expiriences is NESSECARY!

I swear mental illness or psychedelics mixed with religion leads to suicide or fundementalism, or maybe something in between if your lucky. Perhaps I’m being to dramatic, but thats all I’ve seen in my life.

BTW thanks for starting this thread, just talking about this stuff helps me understand it. God Bless.

You are most helpful, and I am glad this helps you.

I don’t understand the concepts and people that do understand them help me.

The soul, if it exists or not must be explored to better understand the person/Jesus relationship.

I must ask then, what is your personal position?

Will you continue to questiion us Religous folk from a purely intellctual persective, or will you make the “leap of faith” that many of us have already done.

Granted I’m sort of with you, I wish all this stuff could be explained away, yet I suffer everyday from the notion that it can’t. I want to give myself to the full hearted beliefs that many Fundies and Catholics have, except I can’t. I weep for the buddhists, the maoists, the muslims, the jews, the hindus that wont be saved, and that’s all I do. That’s why I cant go to Catholic church, or a bible church, or anything similar— because I cant accept what others deem as fact. And therefore I drink.

I’ll drink myself to hell, then maybe I’ll regret my decisions.

Doesn’t it suck, those who wish to save all, cant do a thing about it? Sure we can evagelize, but we wont reach everyone, no matter how hard we try. And perhaps that’s the ultimate suffering, knowing that most people in this world, are going to hell.

On the contrary friend! Take heart because the Catholic Church does not take that view.
The Catholic Church is the only christian faith I can explore for several reasons and one of them is that they do not claim that the Buddhists, Maoists, Muslims, Jews or Hindus will be in hell because they are Buddhists, Maoists, Muslims, Jews or Hindus. They all have a chance.

I can see why you would have such compassion, because the situation is one where you are presented by religion with two options for each human being. One is eternal suffering and pain. The other is heaven or limbo for eternity.

You ask if I will continue to question, or just take faith on. The Catholic Church claims that faith is compatible with reason. So, I am giving every opportunity to see if that is so.

The bible has a passage that states all men are created to know God.

So far, all these promises seem empty. But, I need to examine if I have made enough effort on my own to be open. That, is why I still seek to be open. I ask questions that I need to resolve before committing. Otherwise I would just be shoving these questions under the carpet, and they would pop right back up again later on. It is a hard position to be in really. I would like to believe.

One can only hope that this question wasnt the top priority among the others you have, and if it is, my advise is to keep the rest of them to yourself.

Is something offensive about the question?

The reasons questions like this come about for me personally is because we learn from the Catholic Church that there is a soul, an eternal soul. This, is how God has created us we are told. Now, trying to understand this means to me that I must realize that this eternal soul is a part of me. It will never be seperated from me, and I am told it is also what directs the personality.

The reason I ask about physchotropic drugs is multi fold. I could have easily come up with other senarios where the brain is “damaged” or compromised, maybe tampered with is another way to consider this.

I will start a new thread, discussing the topic without having to use the above example. I could have asked about Phineas Gage, and the explainations that christians could offer in his case for instance.

But, my curiosity is at peak with your dire warnings. I would like to know what makes you concerned about questioning these things? Is it better we just accept without question the things we are told? How am I to understand and accept the claims being made unless they are reasonable to accept? Cognitive neuroscience must be banned today?

Basically it’s fear of hell, that’s it. You see fundie’s give up everything in the name of God in the Bible, including Human reason! For them it’s easy, for others it means constant torture and questioning. Maybe some crosses are heavier than others.

No, it just seems pretty irrelevant.

The reasons questions like this come about for me personally is because we learn from the Catholic Church that there is a soul, an eternal soul. This, is how God has created us we are told. Now, trying to understand this means to me that I must realize that this eternal soul is a part of me. It will never be seperated from me, and I am told it is also what directs the personality.

Im not sure where you are going with this or why this issue would be at the top of your list of questions. Who told you that your soul is “what directs the personality”?

The reason I ask about physchotropic drugs is multi fold. I could have easily come up with other senarios where the brain is “damaged” or compromised, maybe tampered with is another way to consider this.

Not only havent you revealed the “multifold” nature of the reason you have asked the question, but you havent even hinted at one reason.

But, my curiosity is at peak with your dire warnings. I would like to know what makes you concerned about questioning these things?

Honestly? Of all the things to be exploring regarding theism, Christianity and Catholicism, this question shows a profound lack of perspective on what the “need to know” issues are, and is an indication that you are wandering aimlessly.

Is it better we just accept without question the things we are told?

No.

How am I to understand and accept the claims being made unless they are reasonable to accept?

What claim, exactly, is it that you are attempting to understand?? I dont think you have quite pulled it all together so that we know what it is you are trying to understand. Certainly not in the OP

Cognitive neuroscience must be banned today?

Of course not. Where did you draw that conclusion from?

Pizza delivery guy at the door. I’ll try to go over this again when I am done eating.

Really quick- Stop thinking about the LSD if that is so bothersome to you. Think of other mind “damage” as I mentioned earlier.

That is something I can not disagree with you about.

Well what do we do then? Spend our lives questioning only to end up in hell, forever, or give ourselves fully to christ and pray that we’re right.

This is why Christianity sucks.

You are presenting a situation that religion teaches, not only your chosen one. Others teach this. As I said earlier, there are not many options available.

Eternity in heaven. Add limbo if a Catholic. Or a Toll House, or Purgatory that lets you out of

Eternity in hell.

My questions have lead me to ask about the eternal soul relationship with the mind.

Free will comes into play here because we are told that faith and reason are compatible.

Do we reason with our minds, or does our soul do it? Or do they work together?

It just leads to more questions, and the problems start with the things that are told to us and what it really means.

Sacramentally, it doesn’t matter (except for Matrimony). Reason is not a required element of the valid reception of a Sacrament, (except for Matrimony, which is a special case, at least in Latin Catholicism, because the man and woman are regarded as the ministers of this particular Sacrament, and thus they must possess valid intent, which requires reason).

Suppose a hospital patient is catatonic. Could a Bishop walk into the room and ordain him a Bishop? Guess what - yes he could (the ordination would be illicit, and the Bishop would incur an automatic excommunication, but the catatonic guy would ACTUALLY be a Bishop of the Church, provided he had been Baptized, and nobody could ever “undo” this).

There are (exactly) five (and only five) requirements for a valid Sacrament:
[LIST]
*]A valid minister
*]A valid recipient
*]Proper intent of the minister (NOT of the recipient)
*]Valid and proper matter
*]Valid and proper form
[/LIST]
That’s IT. There is no “reason” required on the part of the recipient. The recipient of the Sacrament need not comprehend the Graces that are being imparted. The facility of the mind has no bearing upon the recipient’s capacity to receive Sacramental Grace.

My goodness, why wasnt this your OP??? :wink:

We reason with our minds, we make moral free will decisions with our mind and soul in a place referred to as our conscience (“the heart”). Conscience is the mysterious place where reason, free will and God’s grace interact and allow us to choose good or evil. I am borrowing these thoughts from a wise and gentle soul here on CA who goes by the name of Guanophore - perhaps you wish to invite him to the thread. Part of the mystery is that God’s grace can enlighten the conscience and direct it without obviating our free will. It is Catholic teaching that all hearts (ie conscience) have some basic moral enlightenment by God’s grace, and thereby all will be held accountable to judgment.

Blessings!

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