A plea to the SSPX and SSPXers


#1

As I have stated in other threads, I love the tradityional mass, and while I am open to some changes in the missal(though I would want the rubrics intact) such as the 65 missal, my sympathies lay with tradition. That said, this is a plea to the SSPX and all associated with the SSPX. Drop your pride, drop the petty behavior, and come back to Rome with a regularized status. I will say that the battle going on in the church is far bigger than the SSPX, its far bigger than the petty behavior of the likes of Bp. Williamson, it is a battle that needs to be fought FULLY inside the church, wot with one step just inside the church and one step in schism.

Faithful Catholics, who are suffering greatly seeing the drivel being passed off as mass week after week would jump to a licit tridentine mass, but because out of respect for the magesterium, will not attend SSPX and "independent" chapels, and continue to suffer, silently. There is so much good that could come with a regularized status with the SSPX, people would flock to their chapels, the forces for restoration would become far stronger with the presence of the SSPX on 6 continents and 5 SSPX seminaries, but because of the petty tactics of the SSPX leadership, the generous offer Rome gave the SSPX 3 years ago was rejected.

I am sick of the traditional movment being hurt from those within it. That said, I do not agree with all of the non dogmatic functions of the magesterium, especially when dealing with liturgy, but that saidm the fight can not be won outside of the church. I choose to remain in full and regular union with Rome, and people like me desperately need re enforcements.

#2

:amen:

I agree 100%. Imagine what good the Society could do if it came back to Rome!


#3

I want to make a small statement or two on the effects of the Tridentine Mass, and on how Mass was said in the 1950s.

  1. Since the 25 or so years that Mass has been said in English the number of man and women entering the Religious Life has dwindled to less than 40% of what it was in the 1950s. This is a serious effect of the changes in how Mass is being said. Not only that but people under 30 seem to have less respect for Mass or the Eucarist than in the 1950s.

  2. The number of people going to confession has dropped drastically! Less respect, fewer going to Mass and confession are results of moving away from the Tridentine Mass. I am sorry to have to say this, it is true.


#4

[quote=Exporter]I want to make a small statement or two on the effects of the Tridentine Mass, and on how Mass was said in the 1950s.

  1. Since the 25 or so years that Mass has been said in English the number of man and women entering the Religious Life has dwindled to less than 40% of what it was in the 1950s. This is a serious effect of the changes in how Mass is being said. Not only that but people under 30 seem to have less respect for Mass or the Eucarist than in the 1950s.

  2. The number of people going to confession has dropped drastically! Less respect, fewer going to Mass and confession are results of moving away from the Tridentine Mass. I am sorry to have to say this, it is true.
    [/quote]

And I bet they all drank milk when they were teenagers, and this really exacerbated it…

The cause of the drop in reverence, and understanding has more to do with catechesis than it does with the rubrics of the Mass. It also has much more to do with what has gone on in society in the last 75 to 100 years than it does with the rubrics of the Mass. Simplistic answers are a poor response to a complex question.


#5

[quote=otm]And I bet they all drank milk when they were teenagers, and this really exacerbated it…

The cause of the drop in reverence, and understanding has more to do with catechesis than it does with the rubrics of the Mass. It also has much more to do with what has gone on in society in the last 75 to 100 years than it does with the rubrics of the Mass. Simplistic answers are a poor response to a complex question.
[/quote]

Here is an old saying:

LEX ORANDI LEX CREDENTI


#6

[quote=otm]And I bet they all drank milk when they were teenagers, and this really exacerbated it…

The cause of the drop in reverence, and understanding has more to do with catechesis than it does with the rubrics of the Mass. It also has much more to do with what has gone on in society in the last 75 to 100 years than it does with the rubrics of the Mass. Simplistic answers are a poor response to a complex question.
[/quote]

Bingo.


#7

[quote=Iohannes]Here is an old saying:

LEX ORANDI LEX CREDENTI
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Why not actually debate with “otm” rather than type old sayings?


#8

[quote=Crusader]Why not actually debate with “otm” rather than type old sayings?
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Because saying sums it up perfectly… Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi… “How we pray, is how we believe…”

the way we prayed was changed drastically (i.e. the liturgy)… what followed? a change of belief which manifested itself in lack of reverence for the Eucharist and drop in mass attendance and confession…

here is an analogy:

Growing up you see your father… treating your mother with great affection, reserving one night a week to treat her to dinner, telling her “I love you” frequently.

A little later on in your childhood you notice many things have changed in the way your father treats your mother. Gone are the nights out together, seldom are the words “i love you” spoken, and the affection is little or none at all. Yet he still insists, that he loves her all the same.

Nonetheless, you still observe the drastic change in your father… and your belief is now that his love has subsided or changed. When you reach adulthood, you put in practice what you have learned from those who instructed you (i.e. your parents). And your love is also imperfect or lacking…

So it is with the liturgy. We once saw our clergy show great reverence for the Eucharist. Kneeling each time one past the tabernacle, reserving the sanctuary as holy ground by marking it off with the altar rail, churches that looked like palaces for God. Then we witnessed a change. Altars were torn down, churches stripped, tabernacles moved into “closets”, altars turned around, altar rails violently removed. Laity now pounce all over the altar in the name of “active participation”. The focus seemed to have moved from the Eucharist to community…

Our laity have seen this, generations have grown up with it, and the logical thing happened. A change in belief towards the Eucharist, mass, and confession… so that now only 1/3 believe in the real presence, probably even less than that go to confession, etc…

before you argue, reallly think about that…


#9

[quote=James_2:24]Because saying sums it up perfectly… Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi… “How we pray, is how we believe…”

the way we prayed was changed drastically (i.e. the liturgy)… what followed? a change of belief which manifested itself in lack of reverence for the Eucharist and drop in mass attendance and confession…

[/quote]

And I do not eat carrots because everyone who has eaten carrots has died.

From what I heard there was a drop before Vatican II and the “new” Mass.

As has been said, it goes to catechesis.

You can though out Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi but it still goes to catechesis. If people do not understand what we pray then how can they believe it?

I will also add that there really have been no changes within the Byzantine Catholic/Orthodox Churches yet we suffer from the same problems.


#10

[quote=ByzCath]And I do not eat carrots because everyone who has eaten carrots has died.

From what I heard there was a drop before Vatican II and the “new” Mass.

As has been said, it goes to catechesis.

You can though out Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi but it still goes to catechesis. If people do not understand what we pray then how can they believe it?

I will also add that there really have been no changes within the Byzantine Catholic/Orthodox Churches yet we suffer from the same problems.
[/quote]

Catechesis is now to the point that it has become a catchphrase. Sorry, but that is not the end all be all. Catechesis alone wont do it, the mass has to be reverent, and with the old mass, the mass itself was, although that of course wasnt its primary purpose, an extension of cathechisis. No matter what missal, there is a visial difference between reception of communmion in the hand from a EMHC while standing when some Marty Haugen tune is being sung by t he chior to kneeling at the altar rail, recieveing on the tounge from a priest or deacon while a Latin or Anglican hymn is being sung. 

Now the TLM wont be a cure all, but one has to ask why are Traditionalist seminaries having to turn down vocations, while the LA archdiocese with 4 million baptised Catholics only ordained 5 men this year? I think if the SSPX put its pride aside, the restoration movment would be much further along.


#11

[quote=JNB]I love the traditional mass…
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“To be or not to be” is the ultimate secular question. To love or not to love is the ultimate sacred question. Free will can be seen as the metaphysical means whereby angels and man have been answering this question since the dawn of creation.

Trouble is, saying you love is not good enough. Anything loved must be suffered for. If you do not suffer for that which you love, there’s no telling that you love it. As St. Paul said, we barely know enough to judge ourselves. But we can know what we have suffered for. The landscape of our life’s suffering is the map of what we love.

So, in short, I suggest that since you do not attend the Mass that you love the most, you do not love it enough. For what we love is weighed on the balance beam of what we will suffer for it. If you are unwilling to suffer the slings and arrows of your fellow Catholics calling you a schismatic or Protestant or worse, if you are unwilling to grunt and groan under the opperessive burden of confusion and strife, you do not love what you love enough. And what is worse, you are unworthy of your love. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html
[/font]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/


#12

[quote=ByzCath]And I do not eat carrots because everyone who has eaten carrots has died.
.
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i’m sorry you have this logic :stuck_out_tongue: just kidding…

I would like to see stats for this… I have read the exact opposite. Straight from Catholic Answers apologists and literature nonetheless (i use to volunteer there).

Said by whom? teach me all you want about the Catholic Faith, but if the clergy teaches me that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ – then celebrates the liturgy in a modern sanctuary that looks like a concert hall – I am not going to believe a word they tell me.

When I came to the Catholic Church, I didn’t know about the real presence of Christ until after my first mass… the way the mass was celebrated, i would have never guessed these people truly believed that.

It is not simply “throwing it out” there is a reason why this term was coined. You ask if they don’t understand what we pray then how can they believe it.

But I would say: If the practice was never lost, they never would’ve stopped believing it in the first place; the very reverence of the liturgy would cause questions to arise in the hearts of men. The tearing down of the sanctuary, and destruction of the liturgy would cause also questions in the hearts of men.

Lex orandi, Lex Credendi. Actions speak louder than words. Word are empty when followed by irreverence. The mass when said to be “heaven on earth” appears to be an empty promise when it is celebrated in a church gutted, and a liturgy that is basically torn apart.

I will also add that there really have been no changes within the Byzantine Catholic/Orthodox Churches yet we suffer from the same problems.

Now, I would really like to know where you got this from. I know you are a Byzantine… I have attended a Byzantine Church for a long time and have many Orthodox friends (some OO and others EO). I showed him this quote from you and his response I will cut and paste here:

“I’ve yet to meet an Orthodox who doesn’t believe in the Eucharist… its the core of our being however, we do have folks that only show up at Pascha, and confession could be better in some groups - but normal Orthodoxy requires frequent confession every Orthodox is supposed to have a Spiritual Father. The problem with the New Mass is that it isn’t part of the Tradition …We aren’t having a loss of faith. The Eastern Catholics have messed with their liturgy, esp. in some dioceses, they’ve latinised it horribly. So, I think it is probably wishful thinking - as no one hates the Orthodox as much as an Eastern Catholic - if they do poorly, they hope the Eastern Orthodox are doing poorly too”


#13

[quote=JNB]Catechesis is now to the point that it has become a catchphrase. Sorry, but that is not the end all be all. Catechesis alone wont do it, the mass has to be reverent, and with the old mass, the mass itself was, although that of course wasnt its primary purpose, an extension of cathechisis.
[/quote]

No more a catchphrase as “the mass has to be reverent”.

The Mass is the Mass. Latin is no more reverent than English.

I attended a Mass that had EMHC and even altar girls but it was very reverent.

As for communion in hand, are you saying that the early Church was no reverent?

I am sorry but you can pray all you want but if you do not understand what you are parying it means nothing.

There is nothing that protects the Trad Latin Mass from irreverence. I was speaking with a priest who was ordained and celebrated the Trad Latin Mass before the “new” Mass came to be. He said that back then there were many priests who could not make the transitition to English becuase they just sped though the Words of Consecration, but now that they laity could understand what was being said one had to be more reverent when saying the words.

For some reason many Trad Latin Catholics seem to think that Latin and the old Mass are somehow more sacred, for me it smacks of superstition.


#14

Exactly the problem with the Charismatic movement in the Catholic Chruch :eek: Just thought i’d throw that in here :eek:


#15

Sure, like you understand everything you pray. I think not even St.Thomas Aquinas could do that. Now since you say you must understand your prayer to be heard by God can you explain to me every article of the Nicene Creed which we recite every Sunday?

Superstition? Hardly.

Old Mass? I thought that was the NO Mass becuase some people say it is closer to the Mass of the Apostles… Now which Mass is the Old or which one Is the New? Is the “Traditional Latin Mass” new because the NO Mass is truly the Mass of the Apostles,according to some? WHich oen is the New Mass and which one is the Old Mass?


#16

[quote=ByzCath]The Mass is the Mass. Latin is no more reverent than English.
[/quote]

OK. Testing testing, 1, 2, 3. Which seems more reverent, doctrinally accurate, and just plain Catholic to you?
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[font=Times New Roman]Tridenting Mass (Offering of the Host)

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[font=Times New Roman]Receive, O Holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Thine unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for my countless sins, trespasses, and omissions; likewise for all here present, and for all faithful Christians, whether living or dead, that it may avail both me and them to salvation, unto life everlasting. Amen. [/font]**
****[font=Times New Roman]

[font=Times New Roman][font=Times New Roman][size=4]Novus Ordo Mass (Offering of the Host)****

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[font=Times New Roman]Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.[/font] [/font][/font]

– Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic


#17

[quote=albert cipriani]OK. Testing testing, 1, 2, 3. Which seems more reverent, doctrinally accurate, and just plain Catholic to you?


****[font=Times New Roman] ****[/font]
– Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
[/quote]

Both.


#18

[can you explain to me every article of the Nicene Creed which we recite every Sunday?

What part don’t you understand?
[/quote]


#19

Like it or not, without the SSPX, the indult would not be possible, with a few exceptions, the vast majority of indults Masses are near SSPX Masses. Generally, where there is no SSPX Mass, there is no indult Mass, the liberal bishops who do not have to deal with the SSPX will not offer the indult.


#20

[quote=Iohannes]Like it or not, without the SSPX, the indult would not be possible, with a few exceptions, the vast majority of indults Masses are near SSPX Masses. Generally, where there is no SSPX Mass, there is no indult Mass, the liberal bishops who do not have to deal with the SSPX will not offer the indult.
[/quote]

I don’t know. There’s not an SSPX chapel in the diocese and we have an indult mass thanks to a wonderful priest who waited patiently to get it. He started by getting the Novus Ordo in Latin and waited a few more years for the indult. I can still remember his telling us to stay away from those who thought one mass was better than another. We had a VERY liberal bishop at the time.


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