A Protestant asked me

#21

[quote=Nan S]It’s worth noting that many Protestants who push “Once saved, always saved” are doing it because they desperately want to believe that themselves. So, we have to defend Catholic doctrine charitably.

My best friend honestly believed that herself, for many years, and was spreading “blessed assurance” with others. When I tried to show her the fullness of scripture, which clearly shows “always saved” is incorrect, she told me that she could not bear this teaching. She had been hurt and abandoned many times in her life, and the idea that her salvation might not be assured was something she literally could not deal with.

It took a long time for her to accept and understand that, although God will not rip the gift of salvation away from us, he still leaves us with the free choice to walk away from it. And it took the worst possible circumstance for her to understanding to mature - her own mother, once a “saved” person, abandoned Christianity.

So spread the gospel, friends, but do so with understanding and compassion.
[/quote]

Believing in Christ without change our life is easy, but it isn´t good. Why? Because we aren´t picking up our cross, if saved christianism was true, Christ would have accepted the rich man like disciple, but he wouldn´t

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#22

[quote=Carolyn]A protestant asked me if I had assurance that I was going to Heaven.
I responded that only God knows that.
He asked: What keeps us from God?
I responded: Sin
Protestant: What did Jesus die for?
Me: Our sins.
Protestant: Which sins?
Me: All of them.
Protestant: "so if sin is what keeps us from Heaven, but the Lord paid for our sins by dying on the cross how can you NOT have assurance that you are going to Heaven?"
So I asked him then why wasn’t it a free for all on earth, if our sins are paid for why can’t we go out and rob and lie and party and cuss people out etc. Afterall, if Christ paid the penalty for sin doesn’t that mean there are no reprecussions for acting sinfully?

This guy got me SO CONFUSED.

He told me a story: suppose you are standing on a street corner, and there is a family standing there with you. You slip, into the path of an on-coming bus. The man in the family jumps out and saves you by pushing you out of the path of the bus, but in doing so the bus plows him over and kills him. What do you say to his family? Can you pay them back for what the man did? Is thanking them enough? Do they expect anything of you? God gave us his only Son who died for us. There is NOTHING we can do to pay him back.

Augh! I totally have a headache now. There were other parts of the conversation but this is already too long. I am working on learning to defend my faith. Can any of you give me advice?

This is the 2nd time this has happened to me THIS WEEK… the 1st time was at a wedding… when a woman found out I was Catholic it totally opened the floodgates for the same type of stuff! Please help! Somebody or something is testing me!
[/quote]

hey, i thought you did great… his mission was to rock your faith, all he succeeded in doing was make you want to learn more about your own faith… “you win”… great job… now go to work and i bet you will be able to help him… yep, great job, very good soldier for Christ… i’m proud of you… Hi Ho…

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#23

As a Protestant myself, i would remind my fellow protestant that the Lord said “Why do you call me “Lord Lord” and do not what I say.”

Yes, we are saved by Faith- but if faith is all we have- without good works as our fruit, we enter heaven as one escaping a burning building.

1 Cornithians 3:

13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

As a protestant myself, I can honestly say that you could have used “sola scriptura” to counter his claim. (And to a protestant, that’s VERY effective!)

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#24

[quote=ScottH]As a Protestant myself, I would remind my fellow protestant that the Lord said “Why do you call me “Lord Lord” and do not what I say.”

Yes, we are saved by Faith- but if faith is all we have- without good works as our fruit, we enter heaven as one escaping a burning building.
[/quote]

Firstly here is what the cathechism has to say:

**162 **Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: “Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.” To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

I think it’s crucial to remember that Luther was the first one to ever add the words “by faith alone”. In other words as Luther put it we are “dung covered over with snow” and can do nothing against the truth after we come to a knowledge of the truth. But the Catholic church teaches that faith is yes, a gift given to “freely” by God, but through faith in Christ we enter into the divine life of Christ and cooperate with grace. To be uncooperative and reject grace, to live in willful disobedeiance and perservere in sin is essentailly to shipwreck one’s faith, to throw away the gift of God because we are no longer living by faith but in active and willfull rebellion. Luther believed even open rebellion toward God would not shipwreck your faith, yet scripture makes it clear that our consciences can be “seared” as with a hot iron and loos of conscience essentailly is loss of faith. We must pray for “final perserverence” and hold onto the hope we have until the end. that is our duty and obligation to the God who has freely given us the gift of faith.

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#25

[quote=Max Kolbe]Firstly here is what the cathechism has to say:

**162 **Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: “Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.” To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

I think it’s crucial to remember that Luther was the first one to ever add the words “by faith alone”. In other words as Luther put it we are “dung covered over with snow” and can do nothing against the truth after we come to a knowledge of the truth. But the Catholic church teaches that faith is yes, a gift given to “freely” by God, but through faith in Christ we enter into the divine life of Christ and cooperate with grace. To be uncooperative and reject grace, to live in willful disobedeiance and perservere in sin is essentailly to shipwreck one’s faith, to throw away the gift of God because we are no longer living by faith but in active and willfull rebellion. Luther believed even open rebellion toward God would not shipwreck your faith, yet scripture makes it clear that our consciences can be “seared” as with a hot iron and loos of conscience essentailly is loss of faith. We must pray for “final perserverence” and hold onto the hope we have until the end. that is our duty and obligation to the God who has freely given us the gift of faith.
[/quote]

I would agree with the Catechism in that sentiment. It rings with “Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not what I say?”

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#26

[quote=ScottH]I would agree with the Catechism in that sentiment. It rings with “Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not what I say?”
[/quote]

Hi Scott,

Yes but I think the crux of the issue (and you would more than likely agree) is that most Protestants would say that the individual was “never really saved” and Catholics would contend that one can “shipwreck their faith” by searing their conscience agree and persisting mortal sin agree?

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#27

[quote=Max Kolbe]Hi Scott,

Yes but I think the crux of the issue (and you would more than likely agree) is that most Protestants would say that the individual was “never really saved” and Catholics would contend that one can “shipwreck their faith” by searing their conscience agree and persisting mortal sin agree?
[/quote]

I never understood how a Protestant could say that one was “never really saved”. It seems to contradict the belief in absolute security derived from pronouncing Jesus as one’s Lord and Saviour. But they don’t see it that way. Oh well.

How do you respond when they say that?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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#28

Carolyn:
I believe you are conflicted because the Spirit of God is talking to you through this Protestant and what he is saying does not jive with the Roman Catholic view of Christ’s work on the cross ultimately not being sufficient. Yes, there will no doubt be an uproar over that statement, but the fact is, that is what you must believe if you are following RC teaching.

The Protestant you talked with is exactly right. I suggest you read the book of Romans and you will see Paul explain - in complete context - the relationship between faith and works.

I was a Roman Catholic once and always wondered myself what was the passing grade to get into heaven. I followed the program as best I could, and yet, in the RC scheme of things, the best I could hope for was an indeterminate amount of time in “Purgatory.” The RC system is like trying to pick yourself up in a basket to get to heaven. The biblical truth is that God reaches down from above and lifts us up to Him, if we will only take His hand.

Why would a loving God do for us what Christ did on the cross, and yet still keep us wondering if we could be eternally united with him? Even if we live the most perfect lives here on earth that we can? And yet, that is exactly what the RC Church teaches. In fact, the “inerrant” Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who claims they can know they have salvation. This is in direct conflict with the scriptures (see below).

After I had finished watching Gibson’s powerful cinematic presentation of Christ’s passion, I couldn’t help but think how sad it is that Roman Catholics - like Gibson - must ironically believe that all Jesus went through still wasn’t enough.

The Catholic Church in addition takes that sacrifice and “represents” it as a bonafide propitiatory sacrifice at each Mass. And yet, after all of these countless sacrifices, it is still insufficient for the believer to have assurance. Can this really be the plan of an almighty, all-knowing, all-loving, all-merciful Father?

There are a lot of scriptures that are being thrown around here out of context. Since Paul has been quoted, where does he tells us that we must believe in the Assumption of Mary, her “immaculate conception,” the authority of an infallible pope, etc., etc. in order to have any “chance” at salvation? The sad truth is that there is no point in Roman Catholics quoting scripture when the RC Church ultimately teaches that Church “tradition” can add to or over-rule the Bible. Hence, if the Bible is not ultimately authoritative, why regard any of it?

Jesus said:
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)

“He has crossed” - past tense. It is a done deal. When Jesus, before giving up his spirit, cried out “It is finished” he meant it. He wasn’t lying. Praise God for that mercy, that peace that surpasses all understanding.

Toward the end of his first epistle, the apostle John wrote:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:130

Is John telling a white lie? Should he have been anathematized? I don’t think so.You CAN know that you have eternal life, that eternity with the Lord is assured. This is all part of the abundant life that Jesus promised us in the here and now. That peace and freedom of assurance.

We don’t do good works because we can earn our salvation. Good works are a sign that our faith in Christ is real and that we are living under the Holy Spirit. Our works validate our faith, they are not what gives us salvation. Good works are done out of love and appreciation for Christ’s finished work on the cross, out of a desire to be a light to others for Him so that others, too, can have that peace of mind and assurance that the Council of Trent forbids.

Carolyn, listen to what your friends here say. But also check into the scriptures and see what they tell you.

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:4-10)

Some last parting thoughts for consideration: if salvation cannot be assured, if one is accursed for saying his/her salvation is assured, how do we know that the saints and Mary are in heaven and can be prayed to?

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#29

arcturus,
I don’t know how you justify such statements on a Catholic forum. You are waaaaay outta line my friend and I for one am offended that you would abuse our courtesy and the forum rules like this.

Carolyn’s problem is not in her salvation but in her ability to express what she believes. That is 9/10ths of the problem with people like you accosting Catholics about the faith. You THINK you know what we believe, which I doubt since your posts show a badly fouled up understanding of the faith (so fouled up that you left the faith!), and then you have the nerve to try to tell US what we believe and that it is wrong.

That’s just messed up… :mad:

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#30

[quote=Carolyn]A protestant asked me if I had assurance that I was going to Heaven.
I responded that only God knows that.
He asked: What keeps us from God?
I responded: Sin
Protestant: What did Jesus die for?
Me: Our sins.
Protestant: Which sins?
Me: All of them.
Protestant: "so if sin is what keeps us from Heaven, but the Lord paid for our sins by dying on the cross how can you NOT have assurance that you are going to Heaven?"
So I asked him then why wasn’t it a free for all on earth, if our sins are paid for why can’t we go out and rob and lie and party and cuss people out etc. Afterall, if Christ paid the penalty for sin doesn’t that mean there are no reprecussions for acting sinfully?

This guy got me SO CONFUSED.

He told me a story: suppose you are standing on a street corner, and there is a family standing there with you. You slip, into the path of an on-coming bus. The man in the family jumps out and saves you by pushing you out of the path of the bus, but in doing so the bus plows him over and kills him. What do you say to his family? Can you pay them back for what the man did? Is thanking them enough? Do they expect anything of you? God gave us his only Son who died for us. There is NOTHING we can do to pay him back.

Augh! I totally have a headache now. There were other parts of the conversation but this is already too long. I am working on learning to defend my faith. Can any of you give me advice?

This is the 2nd time this has happened to me THIS WEEK… the 1st time was at a wedding… when a woman found out I was Catholic it totally opened the floodgates for the same type of stuff! Please help! Somebody or something is testing me!
[/quote]

More like this:

What if a man on a street corner preached to you a better life and a life of eternal comfort, and told you what you HAD TO DO to get it. He told you needed to do certain things, and live a certain way. Then when trying to cross the highway this man pushes you out of the way of an oncoming car. He of course gets hit and dies. He has saved your life, and given you works to a better life. But you decide him saving you was a enough. His words go in vain…

Christ commands us to live christian lives and to take part in sacrements for salvation. You have to work within salvation to keep it…

scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

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#31

[quote=Valtiel]More like this:

What if a man on a street corner preached to you a better life and a life of eternal comfort, and told you what you HAD TO DO to get it. He told you needed to do certain things, and live a certain way. Then when trying to cross the highway this man pushes you out of the way of an oncoming car. He of course gets hit and dies. He has saved your life, and given you works to a better life. But you decide him saving you was a enough. His words go in vain…

Christ commands us to live christian lives and to take part in sacrements for salvation. You have to work within salvation to keep it…

scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html
[/quote]

Well said Valtiel! Thanks for the good response.! :smiley: :thumbsup:

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#32

[quote=De Maria]I never understood how a Protestant could say that one was “never really saved”. It seems to contradict the belief in absolute security derived from pronouncing Jesus as one’s Lord and Saviour. But they don’t see it that way. Oh well.

How do you respond when they say that?

Sincerely,

De Maria
[/quote]

That comes from screwy adherence (by some Prot. denominations) to Calvanistic election. That’s a long, boring, mind numbing diatribe for another day.

Its a whole “what came first-chicken or the egg” thing. If some protestants turn away from God, many assume they weren’t “saved” to begin with. Its all about predestination.

Predestination supposes that we can somehow know the will of God in salvation. I think its an erroneous claim by some Prot. denominations.

Sure- to God, there is predestination- as He knows all, but we can’t possibly know for sure. We don’t know the end-game for each person’s salvation.

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#33

[quote=Carolyn]Thank you everyone for your responses.
It is an awful feeling not to be able to defend my faith.
And Martino, I did mention that we need to repent of our sins in order for them to be forgivin.
You all bring up some wonderful and helpful points.
I will study and pray fervently. Please pray for me and for others like me who wish to charitably and intelligently defend the faith.

Carolyn
[/quote]


AMEN to that!! :slight_smile:

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#34

Hi Arcturus,

I believe you are conflicted because the Spirit of God is talking to you through this Protestant and what he is saying does not jive with the Roman Catholic view of Christ’s work on the cross ultimately not being sufficient. Yes, there will no doubt be an uproar over that statement, but the fact is, that is what you must believe if you are following RC teaching.

No Arcturus, the Catholic Church does not teach that Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross was not sufficient. The Catholic Church teaches precisely what the Scriptures teach:

Colossians 1:24
*Paul’s Labor for the Church * ] Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

1 Corinthians 11:1
Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

Therefore we fill up in our flesh the suffering that is still lacking in the body of Christ, which is His Church.

The Protestant you talked with is exactly right. I suggest you read the book of Romans and you will see Paul explain - in complete context - the relationship between faith and works.

Yes please read it again and focus on these verses which Protestants tend to ignore:

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

**Romans 5 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us
**

I was a Roman Catholic once and always wondered myself what was the passing grade to get into heaven.

Then you weren’t listening to the Church which teaches the very same thing that Paul teaches:

1 Corinthians 4:3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.

I followed the program as best I could, and yet, in the RC scheme of things, the best I could hope for was an indeterminate amount of time in “Purgatory.” The RC system is like trying to pick yourself up in a basket to get to heaven. The biblical truth is that God reaches down from above and lifts us up to Him, if we will only take His hand.

You really didn’t understand your faith! No wonder you left.

Why would a loving God do for us what Christ did on the cross, and yet still keep us wondering if we could be eternally united with him?

We don’t wonder, we know that we can, if we obey His commandments:

Matthew 19:17
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

Romans 13:8-10 8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” "Do not covet,"a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=13&verse=8&end_verse=10&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-28261b”)] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
**

Even if we live the most perfect lives here on earth that we can? And yet, that is exactly what the RC Church teaches. In fact, the “inerrant” Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who claims they can know they have salvation. This is in direct conflict with the scriptures (see below).

Council of Trent CHAPTER XII… For except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God has chosen to Himself.

cont’d

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#35

After I had finished watching Gibson’s powerful cinematic presentation of Christ’s passion, I couldn’t help but think how sad it is that Roman Catholics - like Gibson - must ironically believe that all Jesus went through still wasn’t enough.

Actually, it is Protestants who trivialize Jesus’ passion and death on the Cross. The Scriptures say that Jesus came to give us an example to follow:

1 Peter 4:1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin.

Yet you ignore the word of God and place manmade traditions in place of God’s truth.

The Catholic Church in addition takes that sacrifice and “represents” it as a bonafide propitiatory sacrifice at each Mass. And yet, after all of these countless sacrifices, it is still insufficient for the believer to have assurance. Can this really be the plan of an almighty, all-knowing, all-loving, all-merciful Father?

Yes. Jesus’ sacrifice is once for all. It is made present again at every Mass because it is timeless. We preach Christ crucified which is a stumbling block to Protestants. Get behind me Satan, you think like a man of flesh and not a man of the Spirit raised by the same Spirit that raised Jesus Christ. Of course union with God is what God wills. Don’t you remember Jesus’ prayer, “That they may be one as you and I are one.” That is when this occurs, when we eat the flesh and drink the blood of our Saviour we become one flesh and one body. Did you think Jesus’ prayer had no effect? Ye of little faith!

There are a lot of scriptures that are being thrown around here out of context. Since Paul has been quoted, where does he tells us that we must believe in the Assumption of Mary, her “immaculate conception,” the authority of an infallible pope, etc., etc. in order to have any “chance” at salvation?

Right here, Matt 18:17 Whoever does not believe even the Church should be treated as a heathen.

Do you not understand that Jesus’ gave the Church all authority under the sky and with that authority they are to make disciples of the world. If they believe and are baptized they will be saved. If you have been baptized, you need one more thing, you need to believe in the true Church, the Church of Jesus Christ, the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15).

The sad truth is that there is no point in Roman Catholics quoting scripture when the RC Church ultimately teaches that Church “tradition” can add to or over-rule the Bible.

The Church didn’t add to it, it is Protestants who have taken away. The Scriptures plainly say,

2 Thessalonians 2:15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Therefore, if you are not keeping the traditions passed on by word of mouth, you aren’t keeping God’s word. Because the Scriptures plainly say:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

Hence, if the Bible is not ultimately authoritative, why regard any of it?

Because the Bible is part and parcel of the Word of God which emanated from the one fountain Jesus Christ, first by word of mouth and in Scripture. This Scripture, the New Testament was first passed on orally and then written by the authority of the Catholic Church. The same Catholic Church that cherished it and protected it for 20 centuries. If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church you wouldn’t have your mutilated version with only 66 books that you have today. Note the symbolism of the Catholic versions books, 73. 7 represents completeness, 3 represents eternity, the Trinity. What does 66 resemble? The number of the anti-Christ.

“He has crossed” - past tense. It is a done deal. When Jesus, before giving up his spirit, cried out “It is finished” he meant it. He wasn’t lying. Praise God for that mercy, that peace that surpasses all understanding.

That is correct, the Old Covenant was fulfilled. The New Covenant was begun. By His grace, we have become God’s co-workers, a holy Priesthood, a Royal nation.

cont’d

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#36

Toward the end of his first epistle, the apostle John wrote:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:130

Is John telling a white lie?

No.

Should he have been anathematized?

Why?

I don’t think so.You CAN know that you have eternal life,

Yes by Divine revelation by God.

that eternity with the Lord is assured.

But you are ignoring the rest of the book of 1 John:

1 John 3:23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

So believing in Jesus is not just a verbal assent, but also loving our neighbor in action and in truth:

1 John 3:17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth

And this is most eloquently explained by Jesus’:Luke 6:46
"Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

If we want to be saved we must be doers of the word and not hearers only.

This is all part of the abundant life that Jesus promised us in the here and now. That peace and freedom of assurance.

I have the peace that Christ gives because I leave all judgement to Him. My conscience is clear but there is one that judges. That is the Scriptural attitude.

1 Corinthians 4:4
My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.

We don’t do good works because we can earn our salvation. Good works are a sign that our faith in Christ is real and that we are living under the Holy Spirit. Our works validate our faith,

This is where you people are so confused. If your works validate your faith then you have to have works in order to have faith. Otherwise, without works there is no faith. That is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches and precisely what Scripture teaches:

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

James 2:22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Faith is made complete in works. But you ignoramuses confuse yourself and everybody you come in contact with by proclaiming your doctrine of men which contradicts all of Scripture beginning with the Gospels and including Paul whose words you twist to your destruction. Because you forget that Paul said,

:1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Therefore, Paul also teaches that faith alone is dead!

they are not what gives us salvation. Good works are done out of love and appreciation for Christ’s finished work on the cross, out of a desire to be a light to others for Him so that others, too, can have that peace of mind

If you would take off your anti-Catholic blinders and study the teachings of the Catholic Church as you should, you would understand that you have just expressed Catholic teaching:

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171 Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it. Drawn from nothingness by God’s power, wisdom and goodness, it can do nothing if it is cut off from its origin, for "without a Creator the creature vanishes."172 Still less can a creature attain its ultimate end without the help of God’s grace.173

and assurance that the Council of Trent forbids.

You have no idea what the Council of Trent forbids and allows because you are twisting the Word of God which the Catholic Church has preached and taught for 2000 years.

Carolyn, listen to what your friends here say. But also check into the scriptures and see what they tell you.

The Scriptures will lead you to the Catholic Church.

Some last parting thoughts for consideration: if salvation cannot be assured, if one is accursed for saying his/her salvation is assured, how do we know that the saints and Mary are in heaven and can be prayed to?

Because the Church tells us so.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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#37

I’ve got a slightly different tact on this idea. I think it’s in line with Catholic teaching, just not explicitely stated AFAIK.

Let me know if you think this is orthodox; if not, why not?

Our sin has condemned us, according to the Law, which is pure justice. Jesus paid the price for ALL our sins.

Are we now completely free from the penalty of our sins (by “we” I mean ALL mankind)? No.

Now that Jesus paid the penalty, HE can decide what penalty, if any, we must pay for our sins. HE is now the only judge.

Ro 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
7: 4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ,

So, it’s not whether Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient, or even if the penalty He paid covered ALL sin; it’s just up to Him whether or not to APPLY that sacrifice to each of us, individually.

I’m sure I could explain this better, but it’s late and I’m tired. :o

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#38

Where do you live? Certainly not up here in New England.

Fundamentalist Protestant people have sincere beliefs, even if they happen to be wrong on many points. Believe me, I used to be one. These people don’t accept Catholics as fellow Christians because Catholics don’t accept sola scriptura, and they also believe that Catholics have added what is contained in the Bible.

I’ll take a zealous bible-thumping Fundamentalist with traditional moral values any day over a complacent CNO (Catholic in name only) who complains constantly about the lack of married and women priests, the Church’s opposition to abortion, and the so-called “pedophile” priest scandal.

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closed #39
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