A Protestant Friend Stumped Me


#21

I believe John meant that a person who does not turn from their sins, is not following Jesus.


#22

I think it may be possible to live without committing an intentional grave (mortal) sin, but I am not sure that anyone of us can live without committing unintentional venial sins of omission or commission.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.


#23

Why does Romans 2 indicate God will render judgement to every man according to his works?

Why does Romans 1 list sins that lead to death?

Why does James 2 indicate we are justified by works and NOT by faith only? And that faith without works is dead ?

Why does James 5 indicate we confess our sins to be saved

Why does Matt 24 indicate we must persevere to the end to be saved?

Why does Phl 2 indicate we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling?

In Matt 25, why does Jesus send people to the lake of fire for not feeding the poor?

Why does 1 Peter 3 indicate baptism now saves?

Why does Acts 2 indicate we must repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins?

Why, in Luke 13, does Jesus say repent, or you will also perish?

Penal substitution and OSAS, through faith alone, ignore large portions of scripture

They were not doctrines held by anyone until 1,600 years or more after Christ

Ask your friend how she knows she has “real faith” as required under OSAS. She may refer to her feelings or other internal experiences as the proof. Point out the issue with that.


#24

OSAS = OS never sin, because you cannot lose your salvation. They will get all picky, that if you DO sin it means that you were never saved in the first place.

There are volumes and volumes of apologetics to refute OSAS. I’ve found that apologetics only go so far, your life is the best witness.


#25

Actually, in a sense she is correct. The one “truly” born of God would never sin. The problem is, none of use are “truly” born of God. We are born of the world in original sin. When we are born again (in Baptism John 3), our sin (including original sin) is washed away. It is at that point that we become “Children of God”. However, Baptism only washes away sin, it doesn’t wash away the fact that we are still born of the world and live in the world. St. John is not trying to make the point that Christians must become “sinless perfection”. In fact we are told if we claim we are then we are a liar. What he is trying to get at is true believers try to live their lives not dominated by the sins of the world.

As long as we are in this world we will be children of this sinless world. This is the reason we, as Christians, are still able to sin. The context of this passage is the difference between venial and mortal sins, no matter what she wants to do to twist it.

On a side note, not sure if this is 100% Catholic teaching, verse 18 just reinforces my understand of sin. Venial sins we can pray for, like when we say the Our Father, which we should daily. Mortal sins can’t be forgiven by prayer, we need to go to confession for those. If we die with venial sins on our soul we are still “Children of God” and those can be cleaned up in Purgatory. Now mortal sins are sins that are so grievous that one forfeits the indwelling life of Christ. (5:12). If we die with mortal sin our souls that would mean we separated ourselves from God’s grace. Which would mean we chose to walk away from God. He is not going to “keep us” against our will. But if we go to confession we will be in His good graces and He will “keep us” again.

Hope this helps,

God Bless


#27

Of course, we all are terrible sinners. I recall St Alphonsus telling us that when the Bible says we are not to deceive ourselves in that we sin, it means Venial, and not mortally as the protestants seemed to believe: they would say it is impossible to live without sin! And thus faith alone…
However, I believe very few saints may have reached that point in their lives, not many obviously. Most by and large admit to being terrible sinners throughout.
It would be a very late stage of sanctification if it occurs, and I am not sure any of us aside from Jesus and Mary have reached such a state, but I would not say it is impossible, after all Jesus and Mary did it (granted without original sin), but not at all easy, even for those saints.


#28

You have to come to that spiritual state, where Grace takes over or Jesus keeps us Holy ,its not impossible, look at the examples of saints who went directly to Heaven Luke 1:38 nothing is impossible with God.But you still have to confess anyway :smile:

But a causal Christians/Catholic the especially protestants cannot do it,its a false claim


#29

Once Saved, Always Saved only makes sense in terms of after individual judgment. Salvation isn’t a one time event but a process only completed on judgment day. If you already declare your status prior to judgment then there is no need for a judgment day and that goes against scripture.

But after judgment those ‘born of God’ will never be taken from him or be tempted by the devil ever again.


#30

Tell yo’re friend to ALSO read:

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible?

Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another Verse, passage or teaching:

Were this even the slightest possibility; [it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or learn Christ Faith”

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

[Douay explanation]
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes

1 Jn 1: 8-9 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness

John 20:21-23"[Jesus said to THEM [**] again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed ON THEM, and said to THEM, Receive the Holy Spirit. [23] If YOU forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if YOU retain the sins of any, they are retained."

ALL OF WHICH are direct, precise and exclusive

& here is what HER verse actually means:
"Ver. 18.—We know that every one who is born of God sinneth not, but the generation of God preserveth him. The Latin translator reads, γένεσις ε̉κ του̃ Θεου̃ τηζει̃ αυ̉τόν. The present Greek reading is γεννηθείς ε̉κ του̃ Θεου̃ τηζει̃ αυ̉τόν, i.e. he who is born of God keepeth himself, viz., by the virtue received from his divine birth.

And the wicked one toucheth him not. This is the third fruit of the living faith, or regeneration, by which any one through faith and grace is born again in Christ, viz., preservation from at least grave and deadly sin, and consequently from the power of the malignant on"

It MEANS by and through Baptism EVERY Christian Soul is OFFERED sufficient grace so that thet CAN choose good or evil, to sin mortally or not too.[the offer can be & often IS rejected]

GBY
PJM


#31

That’s quite an aggressive strategy, and I haven’t thought of it before. Funny thing is that she (and many others I know) will often be the first the berate those advocating “easy-believeism.” If you can get them to admit it comes down to an experience-based soteriology that would be a huge victory.


#32

So here is the protestant response to this one.

Actually, 2 Peter 1:20 emphasizes the source of Old Testament prophecies, not who has the right to interpret the Bible today. (https://www.gotquestions.org/interpreting-Scripture.html)

I think they might be right on this one. Prophecies of scripture is a subset of scripture. Since the time of Peter’s writing (60s) was when the OT was generally considered canonical, and there really were not many NT scriptures for him to talk about prophecies of. Apocalypse, for example, wasn’t written until much later.


#33

I think it is as you point out attacking the coherence of the whole chapter. It is clear John says Christians can sin. I take the verse more as an imperative or description of our obligation. This is the only way it makes sense of the whole chapter.

I could say Christians don’t commit adultery. By that I don’t mean that Christians don’t commit actual sins of adultery. What I would mean is Christians should not be doing this. I mean someone trying to be a true Christians would not do this.


#34

Sincere THANKS:smile:

But the point is not that everyone CAN self interpret; rather the indisputable evidence of what happens when it is done. …The huge multiplicity of Protestant churches; each identified by it’s own freely translation of the same one bible; one set of truths seems to be clearly indicative of this practice not being guided by the Holy Spirit; not being GOD"S Divine Will.

God Bless you friend,
Patrick


#35

Relying on grace through faith properly recognizes that we can and do sin, as Paul relates to us, and are therefore called to repentance, confession and receiving absolution.
Being strengthened through the means of grace, word and sacrament, we are empowered to do better, to grow in grace.


#36

Just recalled this information which I gladly share:

[Douay bible explanation]
verse: [20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes

“Whenever something is good it does not depend on us getting our way, but on God getting His way, and whether we do God’s Will depends on us [humbly] loving God. Moreover to love God we must [actually] know God, [not just know OF God].” Bread of Life booklet January 9, 2016”[Mt 7:21]

God Bless,
Patrick


#37

So it is taught…


#38

It is easy to take scripture. Or out of context. You shall find the truth… and the truth will set you free…


#39

Yes, through proper faith.
However, Luther was a scrupulous and troubled man who thought it impossible to not sin, and yadda yadda, they tend to believe sanctification is a separate process from justification, while we believe it is the same.
It is possible through God’s Grace.
It is a change of heart and of mind, not mere following the Law.
For if I had the faith to move mountains, what good would it do if we are without love?


#40

So did St Paul.
And John

No. They believe it is distinct from Justification, but inseparable. “There is no justification without sanctification .”-Luther

Amen to all of this.


#41

No, they thought it to be deceptive to say they had not sin, for they did Venial sin.
They never said it was impossible to not mortally sin.
John tells us to pray for each other about the sins that do not kill.
St Paul makes clear that one should endure in righteousness, and if so, then he is saved.

I don’t know when Luther said such, his theology was evolving as he grew, but if he says so then good. They are treated like the same process in the Bible and throghout most Christian history.


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