A Protestant Friend Stumped Me


#42

In my opinion, if Martin Luther were alive today and were to undergo a psychiatric exam, he might be diagnosed as manic depressive. But no one asked for my opinion but, I am free to give it.


#43

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us ".

And Romans 7.

“If?” "When?"
It is the very understanding of the relationship between Justification and sanctification that runs through Luther’s theology of the cross.


#44

Thank you, Dr Indyann. :grin:


#45

Yes, that’s precisely the quote I was speaking about.


#46

It’s hyperbole, expressing the ideal. All Christians should have that as their goal; the perfect Christian does not sin.


#47

John didn’t write in chapters and verses; John just wrote a letter. Chapters were added to the scriptural text by Stephen Langton, the[Catholic] Archbishop of Canterbury, in the early 13th century; verses were added much later, in the 16th century, by Robert Estienne, a printer.
To quote chapter and verse is to take Scripture out of context; read John’s entire letter, and draw your conclusions on the entire text, in conjunction with the text of the other 72 books.


#48

I agree with this. There can be discussion/ disagreement as to whether or not this is attainable in this life.


#49

82 books? The Catholic Canon has 73 books.


#50

You are quite welcome. Your bill is in the mail.
But since this is a holiday, it may be a bit delayed.


#51

Sorry…the typo has been corrected.


#52

God bless you TheLittleLady and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE AND THE HIGHEST LEVEL TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:
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HEAVEN AND OUR EVERLASTING LIFE ARE GOD’S MERCIFUL GRACES AND NO ONE REFUSE IT AND EVERYONE TO WHOSOEVER GOD OFFER HEAVEN AND EVERLASTING LIFE FREELY AND IRREVOCABLE RECEIVE IT. DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
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Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

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(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.
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THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
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FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS

Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most

What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?

Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition. End quote.

Meaning, man does NOTHING and can do NOTHING to enter the state of Initial Justification. – COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
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The Grace of God’s Call (CCCS 1996-1998)
… This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.

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Continue


#53

Continuation

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Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.
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John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him,
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God’s call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will WITHOUT forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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GOD’S PROTECTION OF THE SALVATION OF HIS CHILDREN/CALLED TO ETERNAL LIFE
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a. Our cooperation with the grace of God is PRODUCED (not just enabled) by God’s grace/God’s operation.
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b. God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance is an Eternal Protection of our salvation (Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; De Veritatis 22:9; etc.), the receivers of this grace of God CAN NEVER lose their salvation.DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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SUMMARY
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a. God’s call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of our intellect and will. – NO ONE reject it in all Christian history.DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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b. God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance is an Eternal Protection of our salvation, without it WE ALL would end up in hell. – Infallible teachings of the Trent.

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God bless you TheLittleLady and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin


#54

The highlighted part is basically a tautology, since mortal sin implies a loss of grace and a lapse in faith to some degree is necessary for one to commit a sin of this nature. For an analogy, consider the rationale for Peter’s sinking feet during the storm as he crosses over the water.


#55

God bless every readers of the CAF.
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GOD’S PROTECTION OF EVERY OF HIS CHILD, CALLED TO ETERNAL LIFE.

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)
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This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.
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A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written:
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‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4].”
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Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is;
The gift of final perseverance always works.
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Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”
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The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance.
[43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.
[44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”
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In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote
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At baptism every child of God CALLED TO ETERNAL LIFE, is a recipient of God’s free gift of Salvation/Everlasting Life and His special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an Eternal Protection of the Salvation/Everlasting Life of every child of God.
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Without God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance every Child, CALLED TO ETERNAL LIFE would end up in hell.
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If even one child of God called to everlasting life would commit mortal sin could die in mortal sin, as the result God would instantly lose His omniscience. – We can be SURE this will NEVER happen.
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God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin


#56

God bless you Vsedriver and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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As God’s children, called to eternal life, we are IRREVOCABLY saved at the MOMENT of our Initial Justification. + At this moment, we have received God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an ETERNAL PROTECTION of our SALVATION/EVERLASTING LIFE.
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As God’s children called to Eternal Life, our status is set from all eternity and CAN NOT be changed (DE FIDE Dogma).
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Even we cannot lose our salvation, still we have to stand before God’s Judgment Seat.
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Not our salvation judged (our salvation is God’s gift, God doesn’t need to judge His gift, our salvation cannot be lost), but our works will be judged by God and according to the outcome of the judgment of our works, God will determine our glory and position in heaven.
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If someone’s all works rejected by God because all his works are wood, hay and straw this will be a great loss because he will enter to heaven without any reward. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
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Continue


#57

Continuation
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THE ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS CLEARLY STATES:

God is responsible for our entrance to Heaven (we cannot save ourselves, cannot even add an iota to our salvation, God saves us, it is irrevocable) and we are responsible for our glory and position in Heaven, because our glory and position in Heaven is the direct results of the quality and the quantity of our Supernatural Works/Works of Love. – THIS IS THE ONLY REASON we have to stand before God’s Judgment Seat.
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Heaven is God’s IRREVOCABLE free gift, our glory and position in Heaven is up to us.

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At our Initial Justification we have received God’s gift of IRREVOCABLE SALVATION/EVERLASTING LIFE and God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance (Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; De Veritatis 22:9; etc.) which is an ETERNAL PROTECTION of our SALVATION/EVERLASTING LIFE.
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Without God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance we all would end up in hell, there is NO SALVATION without it, with God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance under our belts, it is IMPOSSIBLE to lose our salvation.DE FIDE Dogma. + INFALLIBLE teachings of the Trent.
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PRACTICALLY THE FUTURE OF THE HUMAN RACE DEPENDS ON AS FOLLOWS:
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We cannot save ourselves. Until AFTER our Initial Justification, we DO NOT even have the free will and the ability to choose God.
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AFTER our Initial Justification to say YES to our IRREVOCABLE SALVATION is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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Only God can choose us for Eternal Life and only He can save us by to call us for Salvation/Eternal Life and to give us His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance (Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; De Veritatis 22:9; etc.) which is an Eternal Protection of our SALVATION/EVERLASTING LIFE.
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At our Initial Justification, Faith, Hope, Charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are also given to us.

So, God perfectly prepared us to be FAITHFUL, CHARITABLE and OBEDIENT children of God.

EVERYTHING we have, we have from God’s provision for us, apart from God’s provision we have nothing and we are nothing.
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Continue


#58

Continuation

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THE SALVATION OF THE HUMAN RACE FROM ANOTHER ANGLE
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.
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John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him,
.
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CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church, Simplified.

Explaining Justification
The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
.
Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
.

As many as were ordained to eternal life all RECEIVED God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance (Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; De Veritatis 22:9; etc.).
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I believe, God’s Love and Justice and Christ’s Works on the Cross demands that God to call EVERYONE for Eternal Life and to give to EVERYONE His graces of Faith, Hope, Charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL and The Gift of Final Perseverance (Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; De Veritatis 22:9; etc.). – God’s will is to save everyone.
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FOR GOD TO MAKE HIS ABOVE WILL A REALITY IS VERY SIMPLE AS FOLLOWS:

a. The Grace of God’s Call (CCCS 1996-1998)
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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b. To give EVERYONE His grace of Initial Justification.
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c. At Initial Justification to provide EVERIONE His graces of Faith, Hope, Charity, and OBEDIENCE TO His WILL and The Gift of Final Perseverance (Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; De Veritatis 22:9; etc.).
.
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As we see above, the salvation of the human race is 100 % depends on God’s Will and 0 % depends on the human race.
.
.

THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
.

Continue


#59

Continuation
.

FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS

Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most

What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?

Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition. End quote.

Meaning, man does NOTHING and can do NOTHING to enter the state of Initial Justification. – COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
.
.

As God is almighty, for to His almighty power wouldn’t make any difference that He is surpassing ALL power of a few people’s intellect and will and He gives only to a few people ALL the graces necessary for their salvation or He is surpassing ALL power of everyone’s intellect and will and He gives to the entire human race ALL the graces necessary for their salvation.
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In either way, God’s process of salvation is exactly the same, only the numbers of the saved are different, a few people or the entire human race.
.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will WITHOUT forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
.
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
.

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
.
In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
.
Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
.

As we see above, for God to save a few people or to save the entire human race is done EXACTLY the same way.
.

THE QUESTION IS:
What is God’s will, to save a few people or to save everyone?
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Continue


#60

Continuation
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In the HIGHEST LEVEL of Catholic teachings on Predestination and Salvation, THERE IS NO SUCH THING that even one person in all Christian history reject God’s Call to eternal life or lose salvation.
.

The Grace of God’s Call (CCCS 1996-1998)
… This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
.

THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.
.

Aquinas said, “God changes the will WITHOUT forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
.
Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
.
.

I believe, in this thread I have proved many times over with the HIGHEST LEVEL TEACHINGS of the Catholic Church on Predestination and Salvation that the salvation of the human race is 100 % depends on the will of God and 0 % depends on the human race.
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Someone may ask:
What about Christ’s promise that only a few people saved?
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The answer is in the book of Jonah:
Probably the Ninevites were the most wicked people in the whole world.
God promised to the Ninevites, throw all of them to hell, yet God demonstrated His “rehearsal” of His Universal Salvation on the people of Nineveh.
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God bless you Vsedriver and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin


#61

I’m not a Christian, but read Hebrews 10:28-29. I just find the ‘once saved, always saved’ mentality to be annoying.


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