A question about Catholic marital intercourse


#1

This is kind of a nitty gritty question...so here goes nothing. I know that Pope John Paul II as well as other Catholic leaders/writers (e.g., Christopher West) discuss how when it comes to climax within the marital act, it is preferable/ideal that both the wife and the husband achieve mutual climax during sexual penetration...of course if anyone knows how the female body is built and its basic "geography", this is not easily achievable on it's own....which brings me to ask...would it be un-Catholic or 'improper' for a husband and wife to use devices that may help bring about the wife's mutual satisfaction (during penetration)? Without getting into great detail, I will say that, yes, there are such devices that exist. I ask this as a sincere Catholic lay woman who would never in any way want to compromise the purity or holiness of the marital act, but who at the same time finds it difficult to reconcile the fact that women are built in a way that makes the much desired "mutual climax" quite impossible. Thanks in advance and sorry for making anyone blush :o


#2

As far as I know, Catholic couples are not restricted to what comes with their birthday suits when it comes to intimacy, provided that the intentions and goals remain appropriate and third parties aren't involved. If I remember correctly, there are couples who cannot consumate the act without something along the lines of what you're suggesting. While not ideal, it is allowable and may in some cases may even be necessary, which is much preferable to not satisfying the marital debt at all.

You're a little vague (thank you), but I don't think you're describing anything improper, per se. I was also taught that climax during foreplay is not forbidden, provided that consumation is the intended goal and is a reasonably achievable outcome. Besides, it isn't a good idea to get so wound up in achieving the ideal that we cannot content ourselves with and be thankful for what is actually within our abilities. If what we can actually do is not forbidden and we are not capable of anything closer to the ideal, we can still enjoy and be thankful for what we can actually do!


#3

Dear friend. Sex between a man and a woman is a blessing for those who live in a marriage. The Church do not forbid to enjoy sex,any more,but using "devices" is maybe not exactly what The Church tell married couple to use. I think that there can be other ways to get the pleasure and joy and still keeping it "clean and pure",and with no doubt You will find a way. God bless You.


#4

Perhaps a little more tender loving patient foreplay from your husband before and during penetration would also bring the desired result. Open up the communication lines and tell him what feels good because if you don't tell him, he won't know. My wife and I were married for 40 years before she died. From the beginning, we were very open with each other what felt good and what didn't, because neither of us had any experience with any other person as we were both virgins. And for 40 years, we nearly always had mutual climax and many times hers were multiple. I hope that's not "TMI" but it's the gift we were given in our love for each other in our Lord.


#5

I do need to go double-check, but I believe that even in CW's book, and in a paper from Notre Dame referencing West, both said it is permissable and even a husband's duty to bring his wife to orgasm if she has not. No restrictions on how that is done. Cannot see how using a device, or hands, or whatever is out of bounds, if it is out of love. Church does not restirct any of that, just where the man is supposed to finish.

The mutual orgasm is a goal, but yep, physiologically is a challenge. We've been married over 26 years and it is still elusive.


#6

Frankly, I have never looked to the Church to tell me how to have sexual relations with my wife. That is a personal matter which we have been qualified to work out ourselves. God gave us the beauty and power of sex to help bond us, renew and deepen our relationship, lessen tension, and enjoy the physical pleasures that should accompany marriage.

 Priests certainly have little understanding of the joys and challenges of marital sex. This is one of the limitations of a celibate priesthood.  

 We are called to be faithful in marriage. Beyond that husbands and wives are free to work out their intimate relationship without Church direction or interference. The attempt of the Church to regulate it - as, for example, strictly forbidding artificial birth control - has caused millions of the faithful to ignore the teaching of the Church. Indeed, many have left the Church because of it. .

#7

[quote="Roy5, post:6, topic:226235"]
Frankly, I have never looked to the Church to tell me how to have sexual relations with my wife. That is a personal matter which we have been qualified to work out ourselves. God gave us the beauty and power of sex to help bond us, renew and deepen our relationship, lessen tension, and enjoy the physical pleasures that should accompany marriage.

 Priests certainly have little understanding of the joys and challenges of marital sex. This is one of the limitations of a celibate priesthood.  

 We are called to be faithful in marriage. Beyond that husbands and wives are free to work out their intimate relationship without Church direction or interference. The attempt of the Church to regulate it - as, for example, strictly forbidding artificial birth control - has caused millions of the faithful to ignore the teaching of the Church. Indeed, many have left the Church because of it. .

[/quote]

It is the Church's job to make sure we understand many things, including the purpose of marriage. Millions may leave or ignore Church teachings, but that's because they don't like them, not because they are not the Truth.


#8

[quote="Roy5, post:6, topic:226235"]
Frankly, I have never looked to the Church to tell me how to have sexual relations with my wife. That is a personal matter which we have been qualified to work out ourselves. God gave us the beauty and power of sex to help bond us, renew and deepen our relationship, lessen tension, and enjoy the physical pleasures that should accompany marriage.

 Priests certainly have little understanding of the joys and challenges of marital sex. This is one of the limitations of a celibate priesthood.  

 We are called to be faithful in marriage. Beyond that husbands and wives are free to work out their intimate relationship without Church direction or interference. The attempt of the Church to regulate it - as, for example, strictly forbidding artificial birth control - has caused millions of the faithful to ignore the teaching of the Church. Indeed, many have left the Church because of it. .

[/quote]

Yes, and in John 6:66, many people left Jesus over the teaching of the Body of Christ.
Popular opinion does not make doctrine, and we have NOT been qualified to work out ourselves.

Eve ate the apple after determining she wanted to decide for herself what is right and wrong, to be her own god.

Please read the many resources on Artificial birth control... (humanae vitae, Christopher west on Theology of the body, etc)
In fact, I dare you to go the week long class at the TOB institute and not come away completely convinced of the utter evil that contraception has caused.


#9

Artificial contraception is the business of the husband and wife, and not the church. Use of birth control outside of marriage is a different matter. Extra-marital relations is one thing, while limiting the number of children for valid reasons is quite another.

 I know a Catholic couple who were warned that another pregnancy and the mother and baby would likely die. They had six young ones already. They piously followed the church-approved method of family limitation (aimed at the same thing) and it failed. The mother and baby, as warned, died, leaving six motherless children and a grieving and angry husband. The family now has become Episcopalian and 'Catholicism' is a dirty word whenever he talks religion.

 How does the Church teaching in such a situation show sensitivity, understanding, and common sense? No sex? One priest suggested this to the couple, but he was celibate and knew nothing about the intimacy and love in good marriages.

#10

[quote="Roy5, post:9, topic:226235"]
Artificial contraception is the business of the husband and wife, and not the church. Use of birth control outside of marriage is a different matter. Extra-marital relations is one thing, while limiting the number of children for valid reasons is quite another.

 I know a Catholic couple who were warned that another pregnancy and the mother and baby would likely die. They had six young ones already. They piously followed the church-approved method of family limitation (aimed at the same thing) and it failed. The mother and baby, as warned, died, leaving six motherless children and a grieving and angry husband. The family now has become Episcopalian and 'Catholicism' is a dirty word whenever he talks religion.

 How does the Church teaching in such a situation show sensitivity, understanding, and common sense? No sex? One priest suggested this to the couple, but he was celibate and knew nothing about the intimacy and love in good marriages.

[/quote]

You are really showing that you don't know anything about the celibate life. Read theology of the body and love and responsibility... that will show you that a celibate knows PLENTY about intimacy and love in good marriages...more than you or any of us do. It will blow your mind.

An anecdotal story does not give reason against a doctrinal teaching. The difficult circumstances do not change natural law.

It's so interesting...people have no problem to think of a couple not having sex because of illness, or distance, or some other tangential reason...but to avoid the very natural cause of sex...children....they do. It makes no sense.

Artificial contraception is indeed the business of moral law,...which is the business of the church. Again, read the books. go to the institute if you indeed care about real truth... your arguments would stand against logic...which you would see that they don't.

By the way, NFP is MORE effective in avoiding pregnancy than any kind of aritificial birth control...so using abc is taking MORE of chance of pregnancy.


#11

[quote="Roy5, post:9, topic:226235"]
Artificial contraception is the business of the husband and wife, and not the church. Use of birth control outside of marriage is a different matter. Extra-marital relations is one thing, while limiting the number of children for valid reasons is quite another.

 I know a Catholic couple who were warned that another pregnancy and the mother and baby would likely die. They had six young ones already. They piously followed the church-approved method of family limitation (aimed at the same thing) and it failed. The mother and baby, as warned, died, leaving six motherless children and a grieving and angry husband. The family now has become Episcopalian and 'Catholicism' is a dirty word whenever he talks religion.

 How does the Church teaching in such a situation show sensitivity, understanding, and common sense? No sex? One priest suggested this to the couple, but he was celibate and knew nothing about the intimacy and love in good marriages.

[/quote]

As much as I see your point, I think this thread is about "certain devices" or "techniques" that allow a wife to orgasm, not about contraceptives. I would also suggest mentioning that instance in the birth control thread, if you haven't already. It would be a good situation to discuss, as it does happen more often than people want to admit.


#12

[quote="Roy5, post:9, topic:226235"]
Artificial contraception is the business of the husband and wife, and not the church. Use of birth control outside of marriage is a different matter. Extra-marital relations is one thing, while limiting the number of children for valid reasons is quite another.

 I know a Catholic couple who were warned that another pregnancy and the mother and baby would likely die. They had six young ones already. They piously followed the church-approved method of family limitation (aimed at the same thing) and it failed. 

[/quote]

If NFP failed, then any form of artificial contraception would also have failed. If she could get pregnant while she was physically infertile, then she would have certainly gotten pregnant while using chemical hormones on the fertile days.

How does the Church teaching in such a situation show sensitivity, understanding, and common sense? No sex? One priest suggested this to the couple, but he was celibate and knew nothing about the intimacy and love in good marriages.

No sex doesn't mean no love and no intimacy - this would have been the safest way to go.

What would he have converted to, if chemical hormones had failed?


#13

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