A question about "Transubstantiation"


#1

When, where and how was Transubstantiation Defined and by whom? I am getting bits and pieces online but not the full story.

Anyone? :shrug:


#2

Transubstantiation

Before proving dogmatically the fact of the substantial change here under consideration, we must first outline its history and nature.
(a) The scientific development of the concept of Transubstantiation can hardly be said to be a product of the Greeks, who did not get beyond its more general notes; rather, it is the remarkable contribution of the Latin theologians, who were stimulated to work it out in complete logical form by the three Eucharistic controversies mentioned above, The term transubstantiation seems to have been first used by Hildebert of Tours (about 1079). His encouraging example was soon followed by other theologians, as Stephen of Autun (d. 1139), Gaufred (1188), and Peter of Blois (d. about 1200), whereupon several ecumenical councils also adopted this significant expression, as the Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215), and the Council of Lyons (1274), in the profession of faith of the Greek Emperor Michael Palæologus. The Council of Trent (Sess. XIII, cap. iv; can. ii) not only accepted as an inheritance of faith the truth contained in the idea, but authoritatively confirmed the "aptitude of the term" to express most strikingly the legitimately developed doctrinal concept. In a closer logical analysis of Transubstantiation, we find the first and fundamental notion to be that of conversion, which may be defined as "the transition of one thing into another in some aspect of being".

newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm

Pax Christi


#3

Jesus defined it in Matthew 26. The Church explained it later.

As to those who do not believe that bread changes into living flesh, ask them what they had for breakfast. They might very well say "toast." I would point out to them that if their human body can transubstantiate bread into living tissue, God certainly can do the same.


#4

I am NOT an authority on this subject but I shared your interest and curiosity once too. During a homily last year, our priest read from a book that quoted one of the early church fathers. It was Justin Martyr who verbally describes the whole sacred moment in writing to Marcus Aurelius trying to help him understand what we were doing as Christians. They lived in the mid 2nd Century.

I have to recommend this fabulous book to you: FOUR WITNESSES The Early Church in Her Own Words by Rod Bennett put out by Ignatius Press. So many of my questions on Catholicism were answered in this book.

You can also look up on the Internet these church fathers:
Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus of Lyons. These are the 4 witnesses spoken of in the book. But, the book is easier and more interesting to read.


#5

[quote="RomanCatholic66, post:1, topic:322323"]
When, where and how was Transubstantiation Defined and by whom? I am getting bits and pieces online but not the full story.

Anyone? :shrug:

[/quote]

Here is a good article from the Catholic Encyclopedia : newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#section3

Linus2nd


#6

[quote="Lancer, post:2, topic:322323"]

newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm

Pax Christi

[/quote]

thank you... :thumbsup:


#7

[quote="StillCatholic, post:4, topic:322323"]
I am NOT an authority on this subject but I shared your interest and curiosity once too. During a homily last year, our priest read from a book that quoted one of the early church fathers. It was Justin Martyr who verbally describes the whole sacred moment in writing to Marcus Aurelius trying to help him understand what we were doing as Christians. They lived in the mid 2nd Century.

I have to recommend this fabulous book to you: FOUR WITNESSES The Early Church in Her Own Words by Rod Bennett put out by Ignatius Press. So many of my questions on Catholicism were answered in this book.

You can also look up on the Internet these church fathers:
Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus of Lyons. These are the 4 witnesses spoken of in the book. But, the book is easier and more interesting to read.

[/quote]

I appreciate that. I have no problem accessing early church fathers. i just needed to know about the actual term "transubstantiation".


#8

[quote="RomanCatholic66, post:7, topic:322323"]
i just needed to know about the actual term "transubstantiation".

[/quote]

The Catholic Encyclopedia, previously quoted, said "The term transubstantiation seems to have been first used by Hildebert of Tours (about 1079)." Fr. Giles Dimock, on the other hand, says that the term was first used by Stephen of Bruge in 1140. I don't have access to Hildebert & Stephen's writings to verify, though. :)


#9

Can anyone get me a better synopsis on my Question please? Is this the best Catholic Answers has to offer? :o


#10

If this thread didn’t answer your question, then I don’t understand what you’re asking for. Can you reframe the question? :confused:


#11

Transubstantiation is the only thing happening everywhere and all the time…all of the substance of the material creation is forever being being transformed into the Body of Christ. Get your head around that and you’ll understand why Eucharist is such a fitting celebration in the Church.


#12

[quote="tskrobacz, post:11, topic:322323"]
Transubstantiation is the only thing happening everywhere and all the time...all of the substance of the material creation is forever being being transformed into the Body of Christ. Get your head around that and you'll understand why Eucharist is such a fitting celebration in the Church.

[/quote]

I know the layman's understanding. I need the theology and History behind it to explain to my Protestants on my Forum. They say that this was "Invented" in 1215 by an edict. I need to defend that with more than just a "layman's" approach. ;)


#13

[quote="RomanCatholic66, post:12, topic:322323"]
I know the layman's understanding. I need the theology and History behind it to explain to my Protestants on my Forum. They say that this was "Invented" in 1215 by an edict. I need to defend that with more than just a "layman's" approach. ;)

[/quote]

That's hardly a layman's approach...in fact it is the deepest of the truth of Eucharist.


#14

[quote="RomanCatholic66, post:1, topic:322323"]
When, where and how was Transubstantiation Defined and by whom? I am getting bits and pieces online but not the full story.

Anyone? :shrug:

[/quote]

Transubstantiation

Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation was defined at the Fourth Lateran Council (1215). The doctrine was based upon the Aristotelian distinction between substance and accident. The former is a thing's essential nature, whereas the latter is a things's inessential properties (or outward appearances). Transubstantiation affirms that, though the outward appearance of the bread and wine (color, taste, smell, etc) do not change at the moment of consecration, the substance of the bread and wine do change--they become the body and blood of Christ.


#15

Don’t patronize me, please. It is not what I am asking for. :mad:


#16

I’m not surprised other people are misunderstanding what you want. That’s why I asked for clarification.


#17

[quote="aspirant, post:16, topic:322323"]
I'm not surprised other people are misunderstanding what you want. That's why I asked for clarification.

[/quote]

This was a ne line question. Compare it to your answer and tell me which makes more sense to you?

**"When, where and how was Transubstantiation Defined and by whom? I am getting bits and pieces online but not the full story." **


#18

[quote="RomanCatholic66, post:17, topic:322323"]
This was a ne line question.

[/quote]

And having looked at the answers you've received and the comments you've made about those answers, it seems your question is unclear. You would probably get more helpful replies if you reworded it. If you don't want to, that's up to you. :shrug:


#19

[quote="Lancer, post:2, topic:322323"]

newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm

Pax Christi

[/quote]

IMHO, we often forget that it is not a Greek idea at all, but a development on the Nicene redefintion of substance. I think that Zwingli , Luther, and Calvin rejected it because they did think it a philosophical, or scientific rather than a theological term. The hypostatic union is a doctrine so hard to hold in the mind that we tend not to think it matters when talking about the Real Presence.


#20

[quote="RobbyS, post:19, topic:322323"]
IMHO, we often forget that it is not a Greek idea at all, but a development on the Nicene redefintion of substance. I think that Zwingli , Luther, and Calvin rejected it because they did think it a philosophical, or scientific rather than a theological term. The hypostatic union is a doctrine so hard to hold in the mind that we tend not to think it matters when talking about the Real Presence.

[/quote]

and yet the Trinitarian belief also had philosophical derivatives... :eek:


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