A question to the Christian


#1

this is sort of like a followup of me and exoflares discussion last night…but its reverse now…

the rules are similar… please NO MUSLIMS respond to this thread…you can pm me ifyou got suggestions but PLEASE do NOT respond as it would just make the thread go off topic…

also, if you are ignorant and vulgar, please do NOT respond… this is for cest, inJesus, murtad and few others who know who they are… this is for open minded discussion and this has NOTHING to do with Islam…

my question is:

“What objective proof you have that Jesus is the son of God?”


#2

Jesus is the Son of God. This means that He is God, revealed to man. The term “Son of God” is an analogy, describing the relationship between two persons of God. Christ is the image of God to mankind. God - omnipotent, revealed Himself to mankind, in Christ.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made … And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth … No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.” John 1:1-3, 14, 18

“‘My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.** I and the Father are one**.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’” John 10:27-33


#3

Don’t forget Thomas at the end of the Gospel of John says ‘my Lord and my God’ to the risen Jesus when he appears - don’t know the exact reference though.


#4

I think it is a horrible question. It approaches things from an atheistic perspective. You can’t objectively prove that mohammed was a prophet. You can’t objectively prove anything in faith. That is why it is called faith. If you want bible proof then you can read the posts above.


#5

[quote=jimmy] I think it is a horrible question. It approaches things from an atheistic perspective. You can’t objectively prove that mohammed was a prophet. You can’t objectively prove anything in faith. That is why it is called faith. If you want bible proof then you can read the posts above.
[/quote]

I disagree. I can’t reply now as I am about to leave for work, but when I committed to Christianity and Catholicism as a young adult it was because I had proved to my satisfaction, not only that there was a God, but that Jesus Christ is God as He claimed.

We are not called to believe blindly, although that is great, our beliefs are based on Faith and Reason.

Cathch you tomorrow unless someone else responds with my reasons for believing Jesus is God.


#6

[quote=jimmy]I think it is a horrible question. It approaches things from an atheistic perspective. You can’t objectively prove that mohammed was a prophet. You can’t objectively prove anything in faith. That is why it is called faith. If you want bible proof then you can read the posts above.
[/quote]

we actually went over this and again like I mentioned, this has nothing to do with Islam and if you go that route, you cant objectively prove anything… can you prove Julius Caesar existed?

and please don’t quote the Bible when proving that Jesus was the son of God…

can I write a book claiming I am the Son of the Devil? would that mean I am true…and from a lot of Christians I have heard that the Bible is not meant to be historically correct or scientifically correct, etc…so, doesn’t it mean it might not be historically correct when it says that Jesus was the Son of God?


#7

[quote=Cyber Knight]Jesus is the Son of God. This means that He is God, revealed to man. The term “Son of God” is an analogy, describing the relationship between two persons of God. Christ is the image of God to mankind. God - omnipotent, revealed Himself to mankind, in Christ.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made … And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth … No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.” John 1:1-3, 14, 18

“‘My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.** I and the Father are one**.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’” John 10:27-33
[/quote]

I am my father’s son, does that mean I am my father?


#8

One of the Catholic approaches to Truth is how Truth is so linked with reason…

example… it is True that God can do anything

Can God make two things identical, but one is heavier than the other.?

No, because that is not reasonable.

When we look at the life of Jesus, and all the things He did and the witnesses to His Life…
we can only make one of three possible conclusion…

Lord, liar, or lunatic

Lunatic… did He do absurd things without purpose… or did He perform miracles, instruct beautifully, live divinly…
Nope, Jesus was certainly not a lunatic

Liar?.. everything He said, He did… everything He fortold, happened… everything He proclaimed was verifiable
Nope, Jesus was certainly not a liar

Lord… well, you need only common sense to see the reality of this being the only alternative.

Muhammed certainly does not qualify as any Lord, because too many of the first two attributes have been shown to apply to him… thus he is a false prophet

I know what will follow will be a muslims list of the “unreasonableness” of Christianity… but the reasons given will first have to depend on Jesus being only a man, and by placing man’s limits on the Triune God


#9

[quote=MrS]When we look at the life of Jesus, and all the things He did and the witnesses to His Life…
we can only make one of three possible conclusion…

Lord, liar, or lunatic
[/quote]

I believe Jesus is the Son of God, but I still don’t like this argument.

It leaves out the possibility that He could have been misquoted.


#10

This is an excellent question. For something to be objective, it has to be proven beyond a shadow of doubt. That oxygent is necessary for human life is an objective truth.

However, to prove something beyond the a capacity of limited humans is impossible. For us to “prove” it, we would have to have the infinite knowledge and understanding of God himself. In other words, we’d have to be God.

This being said, for God to be God, He has to be be what I always refer to as the “Alls and Omnis” (all knowing, all good, all loving, omni-present, etc.). If He is missing any of these traits, He ceases to be God and is only a very developed and powerful “creation”. One of God’ attributes is that He is all-truth. He can neither be decieved or decieve.

So long as there is a God, we can trust that He wouldn’t decieve us. Even among your Muslim Abrahamic tradition and revelation, you know He promised to send a Messiah.

Objectively, when we look at all that Jesus:

  1. accomplished, (healing the sick, raised from the Dead)
  2. taught, (teachings of love, compassion for all as we are all made in God’s image as He told us in Genesis)
  3. and through accomplishments of the Church beginning with the simple and not very talented Apostles and their successors, (even the most devout Christian will concede that this band of 11 Apostles and the traitorous Judas were pretty average people)

we have objective evidence of the the intercessionary hand of God. As He can’t decieve us and still be God, we objectively see that Jesus was just as He promised and told us- Messiah and Son of God.


#11

[quote=Orionthehunter]This is an excellent question. For something to be objective, it has to be proven beyond a shadow of doubt. That oxygent is necessary for human life is an objective truth.

However, to prove something beyond the a capacity of limited humans is impossible. For us to “prove” it, we would have to have the infinite knowledge and understanding of God himself. In other words, we’d have to be God.

This being said, for God to be God, He has to be be what I always refer to as the “Alls and Omnis” (all knowing, all good, all loving, omni-present, etc.). If He is missing any of these traits, He ceases to be God and is only a very developed and powerful “creation”. One of God’ attributes is that He is all-truth. He can neither be decieved or decieve.

So long as there is a God, we can trust that He wouldn’t decieve us. Even among your Muslim Abrahamic tradition and revelation, you know He promised to send a Messiah.

Objectively, when we look at all that Jesus:

  1. accomplished, (healing the sick, raised from the Dead)
  2. taught, (teachings of love, compassion for all as we are all made in God’s image as He told us in Genesis)
  3. and through accomplishments of the Church beginning with the simple and not very talented Apostles and their successors, (even the most devout Christian will concede that this band of 11 Apostles and the traitorous Judas were pretty average people)

we have objective evidence of the the intercessionary hand of God. As He can’t decieve us and still be God, we objectively see that Jesus was just as He promised and told us- Messiah and Son of God.
[/quote]

well…i am not arguing that Jesus was a Prophet/had miracle attributes or even the Messiah… i am asking SPECIFICALLY why do you think HE is the son of God?


#12

[quote=MrS]One of the Catholic approaches to Truth is how Truth is so linked with reason…

example… it is True that God can do anything

Can God make two things identical, but one is heavier than the other.?

No, because that is not reasonable.

When we look at the life of Jesus, and all the things He did and the witnesses to His Life…
we can only make one of three possible conclusion…

Lord, liar, or lunatic

Lunatic… did He do absurd things without purpose… or did He perform miracles, instruct beautifully, live divinly…
Nope, Jesus was certainly not a lunatic

Liar?.. everything He said, He did… everything He fortold, happened… everything He proclaimed was verifiable
Nope, Jesus was certainly not a liar

Lord… well, you need only common sense to see the reality of this being the only alternative.

Muhammed certainly does not qualify as any Lord, because too many of the first two attributes have been shown to apply to him… thus he is a false prophet

I know what will follow will be a muslims list of the “unreasonableness” of Christianity… but the reasons given will first have to depend on Jesus being only a man, and by placing man’s limits on the Triune God
[/quote]

so did Noah, Moses, David, etc… are they Son of God?
verifiable? by what? The Bible?
again, I said this has NOTHING to do with Islam, yet some of you bring that up and continue to bash our Prophet and religion… that tells me you are just trying to avoid the subject or divert it to something else…


#13

[quote=Muslim]well…i am not arguing that Jesus was a Prophet/had miracle attributes or even the Messiah… i am asking SPECIFICALLY why do you think HE is the son of God?
[/quote]

I tried to answer it as best as this limited human can. Please re-read my post again. Essentially, at the end, I believe it becuase God can’t deceive us and He told us Jesus was the Son of God.

The Bible (where the statement Jesus is the Son of God is revealed) earns its credibility via the objective evidence shown via the accomplisments of Jesus during His time on earth, how His teaching was inerrably consistent with that of a all-loving God, and the accomplishments of His followers since ascended to Heaven.


#14

[quote=Orionthehunter]I tried to answer it as best as this limited human can. Please re-read my post again. Essentially, at the end, I believe it becuase God can’t deceive us and He told us Jesus was the Son of God.

The Bible (where the statement Jesus is the Son of God is revealed) earns its credibility via the objective evidence shown via the accomplisments of Jesus during His time on earth, how His teaching was inerrably consistent with that of a all-loving God, and the accomplishments of His followers since ascended to Heaven.
[/quote]

no, i read your post and I think you answered the best out of everyone here…but…what I am trying to say is that… why is Jesus Son of the God? how come its not anyone else… or why does God need a Son for?
and also, a lot of Christians admit Bible is not a “historical document” nor is it “scientific”… so is it a possibilty that the Bible might be wrong about Jesus?


#15

[quote=Muslim]this is sort of like a followup of me and exoflares discussion last night…but its reverse now…

the rules are similar… please NO MUSLIMS respond to this thread…you can pm me ifyou got suggestions but PLEASE do NOT respond as it would just make the thread go off topic…

also, if you are ignorant and vulgar, please do NOT respond… this is for cest, inJesus, murtad and few others who know who they are… this is for open minded discussion and this has NOTHING to do with Islam…

my question is:

“What objective proof you have that Jesus is the son of God?”
[/quote]

Read, New evidence that demands a Verdict by Josh Mcdowell. Besides, what objective evidence do you have that Christ is not the Son of God?


#16

[quote=tilis]Read, New evidence that demands a Verdict by Josh Mcdowell. Besides, what objective evidence do you have that Christ is not the Son of God?
[/quote]

The Qu’ran? :thumbsup:


#17

A mistake I made on that other thread I started was using the word “proof” rather than “evidence”, when I asked what objective proof there was of Mohammed being a prophet. It is true as I think somebody on here just mentioned that proving something beyond the capacity of human minds is impossible… So yeah, I was asking for objective “evidence”, not so much “proof”. That was a little slip-up there on my part.


#18

[quote=tilis]Read, New evidence that demands a Verdict by Josh Mcdowell. Besides, what objective evidence do you have that Christ is not the Son of God?
[/quote]

thats an obvious logical fallacy… if you want to go that route … what objective evidence you have that there is not a 3 ft invisible midget flying in your room?


#19

[quote=exoflare]A mistake I made on that other thread I started was using the word “proof” rather than “evidence”, when I asked what objective proof there was of Mohammed being a prophet. It is true as I think somebody on here just mentioned that proving something beyond the capacity of human minds is impossible… So yeah, I was asking for objective “evidence”, not so much “proof”. That was a little slip-up there on my part.
[/quote]

okay fine then… what objective ‘evidence’ you have?


#20

I’m not really sure I understand the question. So, correct me if I do not answer what you are asking. Are you looking for evidence outside the Bible that He is the Son of God? Because the early Christians wrote about this from the first day, some even when the disciples were still alive. For instance,

The Didache

“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. **70]).

Ignatius

“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D.** 110]).

Is this the kind of thing you are looking for?


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