A quote from Catholic Answers...


#1

I have a question for all of you Roman Catholics out there.

Here is a quote from this site that I read regarding salvation outside of the the RCC:

***However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity. ***

My question(s)…

What exactly does this imply? If I were to join the Reformed Church in my town that I visit, that I’m going to Hell?

Also…do all Catholics believe this, or is this just an interpretation of the passage from the CCC that preceeded this quotation on the page it was taken from?

~mango~


#2

[quote=mango_2003]What exactly does this imply? If I were to join the Reformed Church in my town that I visit, that I’m going to Hell?

Also…do all Catholics believe this, or is this just an interpretation of the passage from the CCC that preceeded this quotation on the page it was taken from
[/quote]

To my knowledge, this is accurate to the CCC and should be professed as true by all Catholics, although I’m not sure if this particular passage is a direct quote from the CCC. The key words here are knowingly and deliberatley. If you KNOW that the Roman Catholic Church is the One True Church and still leave it or cause schism DELIBERATELY, this is a mortal sin. If you die in the state of mortal sin, you will go to hell.

The thing is that most people don’t do this knowingly or deliberately and therefore, it is not necessarily a mortal sin. People tend to be persuaded by other things and then rationalize their way into believing something that isn’t true.


#3

Here’s the quote from the Second Vatican Council’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium):

All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation.

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.” All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged (emphasis added).


#4

The Church now effectively teaches Universal Salavtion, There would hardly be anyone who would geneuinely believe that the CAtholic Church is the True Church etc and leave it, the fact is this means that just about everyone in existence is ignorant of the truth. Knowing that just about everyone is ignorant of the truth, there must be universal salvation, otherwise hardly anyone will reach heaven.

Is this my belief, no but it lies somewhere in between, because I cannot believe that God would condemn billions of people to hell for never hearing of him either at all or in any proper effective manner.

One of the problems I have with Church teaching is that the Holy Spirit works on every individual to bring them to God, now in terms of absolutes, if we listen to the Holy Spirit then we must be led to the Catholic Church.

If we do not end up in the catholic church(Generally speaking) then in reality have we not refused the the Holy Spirit and if we refuse the holy Spirit have we not then in reality rebuked God, which as I see it means losing our salvation.

I can certainly see why many of the ultra traditionalists make the arguemtns they do about the necissity of being in the Church.

In Christ

Tim


#5

This is the tricky point. I would imagine that many who leave the Catholic Church think they are leaving the Church because they think it isn’t the true church.

It would be a mortal sin to leave the Church knowing the Catholic Church is true. Are there people out there that know the Catholic Church is true and still leave it? I would imagine the answer is yes, but I can’t understand why anyone would do so knowing the Church is true. Perhaps the love of sin outweighs the truth they know in their hearts.


#6

Ultimately, we don’t know who gets saved and who doesn’t…we can’t know God’s mind.

The Church teaching is that the Catholic Church is necessary for the salvation of all, but does not necessarily mean that all have to attend the CC. Here’s an excerpt from the catechism.

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”

Joel


#7

The definition of mortal sin involves three things: 1) it is related to a grave matter, 2) one has full knowledge, and 3) one makes full consent to do it anyway. Much like the fallen angel, it is a complete rebellion to God’s Truth. All three MUST be in place to bring one to a state of mortal sin and forfeit salvation.

I believe the RCC is the true church so if I decided to leave, I would have a problem. For others, however, this may not be the case. Only God truly knows the motives of one’s heart, that is, whether there was full knowledge and consent or if there is a misunderstanding of Truth.

Which brings me to another question. What about those outside the Christian community? We have people killing in the name of God and truly believing in their heart that this is pleasing to God?
Maybe that should be a new thread? http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

God Bless


#8

[quote=Stylteralmaldo]This is the tricky point. I would imagine that many who leave the Catholic Church think they are leaving the Church because they think it isn’t the true church.

It would be a mortal sin to leave the Church knowing the Catholic Church is true. Are there people out there that know the Catholic Church is true and still leave it? I would imagine the answer is yes, but I can’t understand why anyone would do so knowing the Church is true. Perhaps the love of sin outweighs the truth they know in their hearts.
[/quote]

I agree that most people who leave the Church DO NOT BELIEVE that the Catholic Church is the True Church…Otherwise, why would they leave? They, at this point, probably believe that it doesn’t matter what church they go to…Or that their “new” church is just as good…or better…


I cannot honestly see anyone who believes the Catholic Church is the True Church leaving…It doesn’t make any sense, does it?


#9

[quote=CD4]I cannot honestly see anyone who believes the Catholic Church is the True Church leaving…It doesn’t make any sense, does it?
[/quote]

Yes, I could imagine a scenario where this could --and certainly does–happen. If someone believes that the Catholic Church is the True Church but leaves it --not because they think it is not the True Church, but for other reasons, say a priest snubbed them or they couldn’t give up birth control pills-- then that person would fall under this category. Not everyone who leaves the Church does so because they don’t believe it is not the True Church-- they usually convince themselves of that after the fact. Some leave for primarily personal or moral reasons (rather than for doctrinal or confessional reasons) and then justify it later.


#10

The interesting point is it is not just their attitude toward the Church when they are leaving.

If at any point in their lives they considered the Catholic Church to be the true Church, and they leave it at a later point in their lives, they incur mortal sin.

Example. If they stood before a bishop at Confirmation as a teenager and confessed to hold the Church to be true, and in their 40’s became slowly disillusioned and left the Church because of doctrinal issues, their soul is in grave peril.


#11

you believe that if someone rejects Christ, and i will bet you believe that he doesn’t even have to believe that Christ is who he claims to be…but, if he rejects Christ he is doomed…

in other words, you know the truth, so to knowingly reject it would indeed be “Doom on You”…

well, we catholics know that Christ is the only way, and his way is through his church, so to reject HIS church is to reject HIM… we are at least more tolerant than most NON-catholics… we at least give you the benefit of the doubt… we believe that you must believe and accept Jesus and his church inorder that the rejection of his church would be mortal (death dealing spiritually)…

but if you did not “TRUTHFULLY” become aware of the truth of the Church of Jesus Christ, then you can’t hardly be held accountable for your ignorance… but, now your messed up, because now you know…:)… :thumbsup:


#12

I believe there are people out there who believe the Catholic Church is the true Church but who leave or refuse to enter because it is difficult. They know that if they become Catholic they would have to make changes in their lives.


#13

<<<Not everyone who leaves the Church does so because they don’t believe it is not the True Church>>

This is true…However, I do believe that the majority of those who leave do not think they are leaving the True Church.


#14

[quote=Poisson]I believe there are people out there who believe the Catholic Church is the true Church but who leave or refuse to enter because it is difficult. They know that if they become Catholic they would have to make changes in their lives.
[/quote]

Sometimes I think other religions should be called “Christainity Lite”


#15

It’s important to remember that simply being ignorant doesn’t let the individual off the hook if they simply didn’t avail themselves of the knowledge that was available. There is a big difference between ignorance and invincible ignorance. The Church does not teach that mere ignorance gets people out of following the Truth.


#16

[quote=CD4]<<<Not everyone who leaves the Church does so because they don’t believe it is not the True Church>>

This is true…However, I do believe that the majority of those who leave do not think they are leaving the True Church.
[/quote]

If they truly believed it was the true Church they were leaving, they wouldn’t even dare leave it.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#17

The real question is what is at the heart of their disbelief?

It is always a lack of faith.

It is the faith that Jesus demands that leads us to accept the fullness of truth, be it baptism and his real presence in the eucharist and his ordained priests etc. Just like the many who came to Jesus because they believed something wonderful was happening before them, they ultimately left because they didn’t have the faith to really believe in the Eucharist. Jesus then says they will not have life in them.

If you really believe in the incarnation then you really believe in the church. So those who choose (without mitigating circumstances) to be out of the church lack the faith to be saved. The problem is we can only broad stroke this painting because it is only for God to know what mitigating circumstances of the heart he may allow in each individauls case. Let’s hope and pray for a merciful judgment.

God Bless


#18

Unfortunately, there are many ex-Catholics out there who believed in the Church. Many still believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church but they left for reasons having little to do with Faith and more to do with Feeling. They leave because the other Church has better music, the other Church has a more dynamic pastor, they sometimes speak in terms of “being fed”.

These same people often come back (briefly) to have Baptisms and First Communions in the Catholic Church because they realize that this is where the true sacraments are.

I don’t want to ever judge what is in someones heart but if a person left the Church in order to fulfill a selfish need, I believe that would be a grave matter indeed.


#19

[quote=Tim Hayes]The Church now effectively teaches Universal Salavtion, There would hardly be anyone who would geneuinely believe that the CAtholic Church is the True Church etc and leave it, the fact is this means that just about everyone in existence is ignorant of the truth. Knowing that just about everyone is ignorant of the truth, there must be universal salvation, otherwise hardly anyone will reach heaven.

Is this my belief, no but it lies somewhere in between, because I cannot believe that God would condemn billions of people to hell for never hearing of him either at all or in any proper effective manner.

One of the problems I have with Church teaching is that the Holy Spirit works on every individual to bring them to God, now in terms of absolutes, if we listen to the Holy Spirit then we must be led to the Catholic Church.

If we do not end up in the catholic church(Generally speaking) then in reality have we not refused the the Holy Spirit and if we refuse the holy Spirit have we not then in reality rebuked God, which as I see it means losing our salvation.

I can certainly see why many of the ultra traditionalists make the arguemtns they do about the necissity of being in the Church.

In Christ

Tim
[/quote]

Well I have a big problem with this. It entirely overlooks the teaching about vincible and invicible ignorance. God gave us an intellect to use to know Him and His Revelation. God also gave us a Church to teach us. Most everyone has had the opportunity to hear or to study the Catholic Church’s teaching. Many of those who do not utilize their intellect to explore and to study the Church’s teaching are very likely in the vincible ignorance category. So are those who rashly dismiss the Church’s teaching when it is presented to them. Vincible ignorance carries with it culpability or blameworthyness. Jesus told the apostles that if their teaching was rejected, they were to shake the dust off of their sandals as a witness against those who rejected the teaching. Jesus also said, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:15-16) [emphasis added]. It would certainly seem that Jesus holds their rejection of his apostles against them.

It is false to claim that the Church teachs universal salvation. It is false to claim that ignorance excuses someone. Only invincible ignorance excuses, and many who claim ignorance have vincible ignorance, not invincible ignorance.

Now we as men, in most cases, without clear external evidence, cannot judge who has vincible and who has invicible ignorance. This remains for God to know, because only God knows the human heart. What we cannot do as Christians, is to excuse the ignorance of those do not know the true faith. By doing this we fail to recognize the eternal danger that the soul of the ignorant may be in. We fail to do our duty to evanglize. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. We cannot say that others are okay, just because they don’t know or accept this. We would not be following Jesus’ command to teach the world everything He has commanded if we accept ignorance as an excuse.


#20

[quote=mango_2003]I have a question for all of you Roman Catholics out there.

Here is a quote from this site that I read regarding salvation outside of the the RCC:

***However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity. ***


My question(s)…

What exactly does this imply? If I were to join the Reformed Church in my town that I visit, that I’m going to Hell?

If you knew that the Catholic Church was Christ’s Church and that the Reformed Church that you are speaking of is not and you still chose to join the latter, you won’t be saved.

I believe that it means that if you know that the Catholic Church is the church that Christ founded and you then knowingly and deliberately choose to reject His Church then you will not be saved until you repent and resume life within the Church. The Bride of Christ, His Church, is one with Christ. You cannot be one with Christ without being in His Church.

Also…do all Catholics believe this, or is this just an interpretation of the passage from the CCC that preceeded this quotation on the page it was taken from?

~mango~

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Phil


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