A Reason to ask the Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph for Intercession


#1

As I am getting DANGEROUSLY close to falling into the Tiber (is there a good Anglican who can pull me back before I tumble in…TUNE IN NEXT WEEK…), I have been considering the issue of Saintly Intercession/Communion of Saints. Although I have not, on my own, asked Saints to intercede, I did, corporately at a Mass I attended, pray the Penitential Rite that asks for Mary, the Saints and Angels to pray for us (me) and I believed it as I prayed.

Anyway, I have been considering the special relationship Christ would have had with both his mother, the Blessed Virgin, and adoptive father, St. Joseph (my understanding of the Judaism of that time period is that an adoptive father was viewed as the recognized father and ancestry and such carried through him). For the intercession of the Blessed Virgin (the Queen Mother in a sense), the argument of 1 Kings 2:19 is used.

In general, for the argument for asking either the Blessed Virgin or St. Joseph specifically to intercede, would not also the Commandment to honor thy father and mother also be involved? After all, Jesus obeyed the law fully, so that would include honoring father and mother, right? And we can assume Jesus continues to obey the moral law, which would include honor owed to parents. We can also assume that, since both the Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph are in Heaven, then they are fully righteous and spiritually glorified so they would not make a sinful/otherwise inappropriate request of their Son (Jesus points out that obedience to God supersedes obedience to parents, but if your parents are truly Sainted, then that issue is a non-issue)?

Is this another valid argument in support of the special place the Blessed Virgin, but also St. Joseph, hold in terms of intercession?


#2

I thought I heard a splash!

I hadn’t quite thought of Jesus as giving filial obedience to Mary and Joseph, such as is documented in Luke 2:51, but it’s a good point. I usually think of Mary’s intercession with Jesus for the embaressed host at the wedding feast of Cana. She alerts Him to the issue, He asks what is that to do with Him and states that his time hasn’t yet come. She says nothing more to Him about it, but simply responds in faith by whispering to the servants to do exactly as He directs them, and lo and behold! he fixes things!

How can you expect not to fall into the Tiber when you’re leaning so far over it!

God bless, Trishie


#3

I hadn’t quite thought of Jesus as giving filial obedience to Mary and Joseph, such as is documented in Luke 2:51, but it’s a good point. I usually think of Mary’s intercession with Jesus for the embaressed host at the wedding feast of Cana. She alerts Him to the issue, He asks what is that to do with Him and states that his time hasn’t yet come. She says nothing more to Him about it, but simply responds in faith by whispering to the servants to do exactly as He directs them, and lo and behold! he fixes things!

God bless, Trishie


#4

On Honoring Mary as Imitators of Christ

Jesus was a good Jew who obeyed the Law of Moses perfectly, and a key component of the Law is known as the Ten Commandments. The first commandment that deals with our relationships with others states, “Honor your Father and Mother.”

As a dutiful Jewish son who obeyed the law perfectly, Jesus fulfilled this commandment by honoring His Mother. The Hebrew word for “honor” actually means “glorify”. So, Jesus bestows glory on his mother, Mary.

At the annunciation, the angel of the Lord called Mary “full of grace”. Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God declares that “from now on all generations will call [Mary] blessed”. Consequently, we honor Jesus’ mother in our own generation.

The Catholic Church was not the first to honor and glorify Mary - Jesus was. We simply obey the word of God which calls us to “be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly beloved children.” (Ephesians 5:1)

Come on in…the water’s fine. :tiphat:


#5

That is what others tell me (about the water I mean) and I am currently in discussion with a Roman Catholic Priest about joining the RCC unless something miraculous happens to restore Anglicanism to the Church of Pope St. Gregory the Great, the ‘founder’ Anglicanism (that is a topic for a different thread though).

Wouldn’t, since Scripture describes St. Joseph as Jesus’ father (adoptive, not biological, of course), wouldn’t Jesus also bestow honor upon him?


#6

Yes, and I believe Joseph was honored first when he was chosen by God to be the adoptive father of His own son!

To this very day, the Church continues to remember and honor St. Joseph and all the saints.


#7

This reminds me of a story I heard…

The father buys his son a football when he is born.
The father teaches the son how to catch with many hours tossing the ball.
The father takes him to every practice and teaches his son the rules of the game.
The father offers advice on which team to sign with.
And the day his son wins the Superbowl Championship they interview his son and what does he say…

Hi Mom:wave:

I love this verse

**1 Kings 2:19 **
19So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king arose to meet her, bowed before her, and sat on his throne; then he had a throne set for the king’s mother, and she sat on his right.

Who am I kidding? I have many favorites:rolleyes: But this one reminds me that we are a family both in heaven and on earth.

**Ephesians 3:14-15 **

14For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,

15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,

and that death doesn’t change anything.

**Romans 8:35-39 **

35Who will **separate us **from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

38For I am convinced that neither** death, nor life**, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I know a lady who has this idea that the dead are just laying in heaven with their eyes closed. Scripture shows us something very different.

Hebrews 12
Jesus, the Example
1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

**James 5:16 **

16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The **effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. **

James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.

**Revelation 5:8 **
8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, **which are the prayers of the saints. **

The saints pray.

Revelation 8:3-4
3Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the **prayers of all the saints **on the golden altar which was before the throne.

4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.

Saint Joseph
newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm

St. Joseph
Feastday: March 19, May 1
Patron of the Universal Church

catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=4

Scripture Catholic
scripturecatholic.com/saints.html#saints-I


#8

Jesus seemed to consider obedience to God’s will more important than family ties. So, although Jesus honoring His parents might be a reason for giving Joseph and Mary a special place in His kingdom, I think the more important reason for giving them a special place in His kingdom was their faithful obedience to God’s will which was essential for a successful Incarnation.


#9

If you would really like to get some spiritual insight into the relational roles within the Holy Family (Jesus, Mary and Joseph) and in particular Mary’s and Joseph’s relationships to each other on earth and in heaven I recommend reading Mystical City of God. This is The Divine History and Life of the Virgin Mother of God as revealed to Venerable Mary of Agreda. This link is an online abridged version of a comprehensive book also available at any good Christian bookstore or Amazon Purchase Mystical City of God.

The “Mystical City of God” by Venerable Mother Mary of Jesus of Agreda (1602-1665) is a monumental four-volume history of the life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, as revealed by Our Lady to a 17th-century Spanish nun. The work has been acclaimed by Popes, cardinals and theologians and has inspired readers for over 300 years. Included in this work is the following account of the holy death of St. Joseph, given to this holy nun by Our Lady herself. The account is very inspiring and shows why the Church has acclaimed St. Joseph as the patron of a happy death. **The English translation of this work has the imprimatur of the former Archbishop of Santa Fe. **

Here is a quick link to one of my favorite sections on The Happy Death of St. Joseph

God Bless and Welcome Home!

James


#10

Here’s an article that I wrote on The Intercession & Communion of Saints that might be of some help.


#11

Church Militant;4144341]Here’s an article that I wrote on The Intercession & Communion of Saints that might be of some help.

This is from your article that you wrote. I thought i would address a couple of points;

“To me this passage makes it pretty clear that the faithful departed are not only aware of what we do (This of course by the will and power of God!), but they are actively interceding for us the way that race fans do.”

Here is the verse that you refer to in your article:
THEREFORE, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Where do you get the idea from this that:

  1. These “great a cloud of witnesses” is speaking of anyone but those who are mentioned in chapter 11?
  2. These “witnesses” whoever they are actively interceding for us?

As to the charge of necromancy:
It’s not necromancy, you need to understand the Communion of Saints.

If our dead brothers and sisters are not aware of us then why does Hebrews 12:1 say that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses in our race for the Kingdom of God?

This passage does not make any mention that these “witnesses” are your departed brothers and sisters. (Its better to understand these witnesses as a reference to those who are mentioned in chapter 11) Secondly again there is no mention that these witnesses are aware of us in any sense nor that there is any communication going on between them and us. This is a classic example of reading into the text what is not there.


#12

Whenever you see “therefore” in scripture, it is wise to look and see what it is there for. In this passage, the writer is making a point based on the previous foundation that has been laid. The writer says that “since we have so great a cloud” (those whom were just listed) we should strive forward. If you think this “therefore” is not a reference to the previous verses, what do you think it is there for?

Why would they stop interceding for us just because they had passed beyond the veil of the flesh? Jesus said that those who are in Him are “alive forever more” and that “even though they die, they shall live”. In Revelation we see the saints in heaven offering the prayers of those still on earth. Primarily, this has been the practice of the early church since Apostolic times.

The list in Heb 11 are examples of persons who lived and died by faith. They have joined the communion of saints, and are part of the great cloud of witnesses comprised of all those throughout history who have lived and died by faith.

People cannot “witness” if they don’t know what is going on. :shrug:

Perhaps you can explain how one can “witness” when they don’t know what is going on? While you are at it, explain how Samuel knew what was about to happen to Saul and his sons the next day, and how Elijah and Moses were able to have a conversation with Jesus about the upcoming crucifixion.


#13

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.