A sad day at St Martin DePorres, Jensen Beach, FL


#1

After over twenty years of having the Traditional Latin Mass every Sunday at St. Martin DePorres, in Jensen Beach, Florida, it has been announced in the bulletin that June 27, 2012, the Latin Mass will be indefinitely suspended. This means no more Latin Mass.
Since the nearest Latin Mass I know of is 90 miles away, I encourage all who attended this Mass to consider attending the Divine Liturgy at Sts Cyril and Methodius, in Ft. Pierce, Florida. It is only 19 miles north of St Martin DePorres and is in full Communion with the Holy See. Below is a link to a map of how to get to this wonderful Byzantine Catholic Church. I hope to see you there!

byzcath.org/fortpierce/ChurchMap.htm


#2

Sorry to hear of your loss.

At least at a Byzantine Mass there will be a valid epiklesis. The Tridentine Mass has a very vague one. In Eastern theology the epiklesis (calling down the Holy Spirit to change the gifts) is necessary for the change to occur. So, from an Eastern standpoint the extraordinary form is not valid. The Ordinary Form DOES HAVE a clear epiklesis, incidentally--we can thank the Eastern bishops present at Vatican 2 for that.

The Ambrosian Rite has a clear epiklesis too, and it is found after the words of institution like in the Eastern rites.


#3

Do you have any references/official statements from any Eastern Rite Catholic Bishops/Patriarchs?...By definition...if they are in communion with Pope...they could not hold/say the EF Tridentine Liturgy is not valid or not licit.

Pax Christi


#4

Not trying to cause trouble... really.

Of course, when I mentioned the allegation that the EF Mass would be considered invalid from an Eastern perspective I was referring to the Eastern Orthodox position. No "Uniate" bishop would ever make the accusation. There are "Western Rite" Orthodox parishes (in Communion with the Antiochian Orthodox) who use the "Rite of St. Gregory" as they call the Latin Mass and they stick in the epiklesis from the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom to make it valid. They do the same to the Anglican Mass used in their "Rite of St. Tikhon" parishes.

In defense of the EF, the argument can be made that it does ask God to change the gifts. The question the Orthodox ask is "Is it clear enough?"

Something I find funny is when traditionalist Catholics choose a Byzantine Catholic parish over a "typical" Roman Rite one. The "traditionalist" Byzantines hate the current translation of the Divine Liturgy with the same intensity traditionalist Romans despise the OF. Also, the Byzantines and Ukrainians are trying to root out "latinizations" in the Eastern Rite. In Ukraine there's a schismatic group called the "Society of St. Josaphat" that is trying to keep the Latinizations IN the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church--this group is supported by the SSPX.


#5

BTW- I am not a "Traditionalist" and nothing I have posted comes from a "Traditionalist" perspective. The Tridentine Mass has been in use for almost 400 years and is quite valid in every way....but the Novus Ordo is also valid.
Validity is not the issue, at least as far as I am concerned.


#6

[quote="MisterCorduroy, post:2, topic:286656"]
Sorry to hear of your loss.

At least at a Byzantine Mass there will be a valid epiklesis. The Tridentine Mass has a very vague one. In Eastern theology the epiklesis (calling down the Holy Spirit to change the gifts) is necessary for the change to occur. So, from an Eastern standpoint the extraordinary form is not valid. The Ordinary Form DOES HAVE a clear epiklesis, incidentally--we can thank the Eastern bishops present at Vatican 2 for that.

The Ambrosian Rite has a clear epiklesis too, and it is found after the words of institution like in the Eastern rites.

[/quote]

Prior to the great schism, there was never a doubt as to the validity of the Roman Mass. You never once hear a great Eastern Doctor, e.g. St. John Chrysostom who wrote the Byzantine "Mass", condemn the Roman Canon for not having a "valid" epiclesis. Eastern theology regarding the epiclesis came only as a response to post-schism Roman Theology, which really had existed long prior to the schism. Additionally "valid" is a word foreign to Eastern theology. The addition of the epiclesis into the Eucharistic prayers was NOT at the request of Eastern bishops at VII, but by the hand of "theologians" who despised the Roman Canon. Byzantines and Ukrainians (laity) were NOT trying to de-latinize their liturgy and Churches, this was at the request of Orthodox and modern Roman "theologians" - the same who de-latinized the Roman Mass.


#7

[quote="rciadan, post:5, topic:286656"]
BTW- I am not a "Traditionalist" and nothing I have posted comes from a "Traditionalist" perspective. The Tridentine Mass has been in use for almost 400 years and is quite valid in every way....but the Novus Ordo is also valid.
Validity is not the issue, at least as far as I am concerned.

[/quote]

You might want to add a few [hundred] years to that...

There is an SSPX chapel in West Palm, probably isn't terribly far from Jensen Beach. Who knows, maybe in a few months you could regularly attend there...pun intended!

Which diocese are you in? Palm Beach? Much of Florida still isn't friendly to the EF, hopefully things will change. Take advantage of the nearby Byzantine Church, folks in north Florida aren't so lucky.


#8

[quote="BertBlyleven, post:6, topic:286656"]
Prior to the great schism, there was never a doubt as to the validity of the Roman Mass.

[/quote]

Of course not. The Extraordinary Form was not codified until the Council of Trent. That is (roughly) 400-500 years after the Great Schism. Even after the Great Schism, the concern was not the epiclesis but the fact that they believed that the Churches under the authority of Rome were in heresy and excommunication.

Furthermore, while the word "valid" may be foreign to Eastern Theology, but its concept is not.


#9

[quote="rciadan, post:1, topic:286656"]
After over twenty years of having the Traditional Latin Mass every Sunday at St. Martin DePorres, in Jensen Beach, Florida, it has been announced in the bulletin that June 27, 2012, the Latin Mass will be indefinitely suspended. This means no more Latin Mass.
Since the nearest Latin Mass I know of is 90 miles away, I encourage all who attended this Mass to consider attending the Divine Liturgy at Sts Cyril and Methodius, in Ft. Pierce, Florida. It is only 19 miles north of St Martin DePorres and is in full Communion with the Holy See. Below is a link to a map of how to get to this wonderful Byzantine Catholic Church. I hope to see you there!

byzcath.org/fortpierce/ChurchMap.htm

[/quote]

What is the point of this suggestion? If one is a Latin Catholic then wouldn't it be better for them to worship in their own rite?

It seems almost as if your suggestion here means that those who attended the EF that is going way were doing so out of some sort of protest rather than an actual preference. If that is the case then the EF should be done away with as that is not a legitimate reason for attending it.

[quote="MisterCorduroy, post:2, topic:286656"]
Sorry to hear of your loss.

At least at a Byzantine Mass there will be a valid epiklesis. The Tridentine Mass has a very vague one. In Eastern theology the epiklesis (calling down the Holy Spirit to change the gifts) is necessary for the change to occur. So, from an Eastern standpoint the extraordinary form is not valid. The Ordinary Form DOES HAVE a clear epiklesis, incidentally--we can thank the Eastern bishops present at Vatican 2 for that.

The Ambrosian Rite has a clear epiklesis too, and it is found after the words of institution like in the Eastern rites.

[/quote]

As for the epiklesis question.

The epiklesis is present in the EF it is just implied rather then explicit. The same goes for the OF when the Roman Canon (Eucharistic Prayer 1) is used as that is from the EF.

So from the Eastern standpoint the EF is valid just as the Anaphora of the Assyrian Church is valid even though it does not have the explicit words of institution.


#10

[quote="rciadan, post:1, topic:286656"]
After over twenty years of having the Traditional Latin Mass every Sunday at St. Martin DePorres, in Jensen Beach, Florida, it has been announced in the bulletin that June 27, 2012, the Latin Mass will be indefinitely suspended. This means no more Latin Mass.
Since the nearest Latin Mass I know of is 90 miles away, I encourage all who attended this Mass to consider attending the Divine Liturgy at Sts Cyril and Methodius, in Ft. Pierce, Florida. It is only 19 miles north of St Martin DePorres and is in full Communion with the Holy See. Below is a link to a map of how to get to this wonderful Byzantine Catholic Church. I hope to see you there!

[/quote]

What's your point? The EF Mass is cancelled in your area probably due to lack of demand. You're encouraging those that used to attend this EF to attend the Eastern Divine Liturgy? Why?


#11

[quote="Laetus, post:10, topic:286656"]
What's your point? The EF Mass is cancelled in your area probably due to lack of demand. You're encouraging those that used to attend this EF to attend the Eastern Divine Liturgy? Why?

[/quote]

That does seem pretty bad. It's not like choosing between the two different forms within your own rite (excluding the Ambrosian form), but rather it is urging people to attend different Rites out of (what I assume) is a suppression of the Ordinary Form.


#12

[quote="rciadan, post:1, topic:286656"]
After over twenty years of having the Traditional Latin Mass every Sunday at St. Martin DePorres, in Jensen Beach, Florida, it has been announced in the bulletin that June 27, 2012, the Latin Mass will be indefinitely suspended. This means no more Latin Mass.
Since the nearest Latin Mass I know of is 90 miles away, I encourage all who attended this Mass to consider attending the Divine Liturgy at Sts Cyril and Methodius, in Ft. Pierce, Florida. It is only 19 miles north of St Martin DePorres and is in full Communion with the Holy See. Below is a link to a map of how to get to this wonderful Byzantine Catholic Church. I hope to see you there!

byzcath.org/fortpierce/ChurchMap.htm

[/quote]

By "Traditional Latin Mass" and "Latin Mass," do you mean Extraordinary Form? It is a little confusing, because the Ordinary Form can also be celebrated in Latin.


#13

[quote="ByzCath, post:9, topic:286656"]
What is the point of this suggestion? If one is a Latin Catholic then wouldn't it be better for them to worship in their own rite?

It seems almost as if your suggestion here means that those who attended the EF that is going way were doing so out of some sort of protest rather than an actual preference. If that is the case then the EF should be done away with as that is not a legitimate reason for attending it..

[/quote]

Actually, my suggestion has nothing to do with protest. I take umbrage that you would insert such a motive into my statement. It is because most of those who attend the TLM prefer a more traditional liturgy, and the DL at Sts Cyrily and Methodius is close which makes it a good alternative. I am not suggesting anyone move away from Rome. I am sharing a great find that I have discovered... The Divine Liturgy is beautiful and where one can still be in Communion with Rome.


#14

[quote="Laetus, post:10, topic:286656"]
What's your point? The EF Mass is cancelled in your area probably due to lack of demand. You're encouraging those that used to attend this EF to attend the Eastern Divine Liturgy? Why?

[/quote]

You should not make assumptions... The TLM is being suspended because the priest that has been saying the Mass for the last 3 or 4 years is being transferred to another parish and the one who said the Mass for twenty or more years before that is quite aged and is too infirm to do so anymore. It has nothing to do with attendance. The attendance at the TLM is as good as some of the other, NO Masses...
I am encouraging them to attend the DL because;

[LIST]
*]It is beautiful! I am falling in love with it. At times during the liturgy, I am moved to tears and my soul is lifted in ways I am unable to aptly describe...
*]Many of those attending the TLM are traveling 2 or more hours to do so and will not attend a NO Mass... The DL has the same claim to Tradition as the TLM and none of the abuses that seem to abound in the NO liturgies. I would much rather they attend an Eastern Rite than to cease going...
[/LIST]


#15

[quote="bmadamsberry, post:11, topic:286656"]
That does seem pretty bad. It's not like choosing between the two different forms within your own rite (excluding the Ambrosian form), but rather it is urging people to attend different Rites out of (what I assume) is a suppression of the Ordinary Form.

[/quote]

Again with the assumptions...! There is no suppression taking place. Merely the normal movement of a priest. The pastor at St Martin's would *never *suppress the TLM, or "Extraordinary Form". It is just the way things are working out. And there is nothing wrong with attending the Eastern Rite. Tis in Communion with Rome and any Catholic is welcome to receive Holy Communion there. I am not encouraging anyone to do anything illicit...Again, many who attended the EF at St Martins will not attend a NO Mass, and may well be seeking a viable alternative...


#16

[quote="rciadan, post:15, topic:286656"]
Again with the assumptions...! There is no suppression taking place. Merely the normal movement of a priest. The pastor at St Martin's would *never *suppress the TLM, or "Extraordinary Form". It is just the way things are working out. And there is nothing wrong with attending the Eastern Rite. Tis in Communion with Rome and any Catholic is welcome to receive Holy Communion there. I am not encouraging anyone to do anything illicit...Again, many who attended the EF at St Martins will not attend a NO Mass, and may well be seeking a viable alternative...

[/quote]

I said suppression of the Ordinary Form, and I was not referring to the actions of the pastor.


#17

[quote="rciadan, post:15, topic:286656"]
Again with the assumptions...! There is no suppression taking place. Merely the normal movement of a priest. The pastor at St Martin's would *never *suppress the TLM, or "Extraordinary Form". It is just the way things are working out. And there is nothing wrong with attending the Eastern Rite. Tis in Communion with Rome and any Catholic is welcome to receive Holy Communion there. I am not encouraging anyone to do anything illicit...Again, many who attended the EF at St Martins will not attend a NO Mass, and may well be seeking a viable alternative...

[/quote]

Perhaps you should have been more clear in your OP. You said "indefinately suspended" but didn't say then that it was simply because the priest was being transferred.

Perhaps the best solution for those who prefer the EF is to go to the priest's new parish. Or ask the bishop if another priest who can say the EF be transferred to a central parish. Attending a DL is not the same thing.


#18

[quote="bmadamsberry, post:12, topic:286656"]
By "Traditional Latin Mass" and "Latin Mass," do you mean Extraordinary Form? It is a little confusing, because the Ordinary Form can also be celebrated in Latin.

[/quote]

True, but it rarely is. In most of the NO Masses it is not in Latin and there are a great many abuses taking place, though with the recent corrections, I think less than before.
For me, the problem is not which language is used, but the overall result. EMHC's are the norm. Half of the people I know have not received the Eucharist from actual blessed hands in years! Many of the EMHC's consider themselves as normal ministers of communion...
And don't get me started on the choices that the music directors make, many of whom I have spoken to who favor very unorthodox ideas, to say the least...


#19

[quote="bmadamsberry, post:16, topic:286656"]
I said suppression of the Ordinary Form, and I was not referring to the actions of the pastor.

[/quote]

Just what does "suppression of the Ordinary Form" mean? I do not understand your statement and wish clarification, please.


#20

[quote="BertBlyleven, post:7, topic:286656"]
You might want to add a few [hundred] years to that...

There is an SSPX chapel in West Palm, probably isn't terribly far from Jensen Beach. Who knows, maybe in a few months you could regularly attend there...pun intended!

Which diocese are you in? Palm Beach? Much of Florida still isn't friendly to the EF, hopefully things will change. Take advantage of the nearby Byzantine Church, folks in north Florida aren't so lucky.

[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I missed the pun. I would not attend at a SSPX church as it is not in communion with the Holy See.


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