A thought experiment: there were no Vatican ll reforms. What is the state of the Church in the Anglophone world in 2018?

A thought experiment: there were no Vatican ll reforms. What is the state of the Church in the Anglophone world in 2018?

1 Like


Oh boy…! This has the potential to have even more fireworks than the unending ‘evolution’ thread!


More traditional and even less attended than it is now due largely to the explosion of contemporary worship in all expressions of Christianity.

But the 4 or 5 left would be a righteous bunch!



In My Opinion, Feel Free to Disagree
The remaining Catholics would be a strong, faithful, but small group, with many former Catholics joining high church Lutheran and Episcopal congregations due to misunderstandings in the faith that would not have been addressed by the nonexistent V2.

I think that is pretty much right on the mark. The explosive growth of the faith in Africa and to a lesser but still significant extent in Asia would not have happened. There would be a hand full of Catholics in the West, very reverent, very traditional, still around, but they would be so marginalized that society as a whole would view them as we do the Amish. No evangelization would be possible because the remaining few would be so isolated from the world that they would be unable to be “a light on a hill or the salt of the world”, but would be merely a weird curiosity to the vast majority of people.


No Deaconjeff

The Church would enter a new Golden Age people would be running to Confession, converts everywhere and all of America would be Catholic like God intended

1 Like

LOLROTF. Good one.


Why are you laughing? when all around us the Faithful and youth have abandoned the True Faith for secularism and false reglions

The Church was fine the way She was before the Council

Wait, you were serious? Really? I suggest you do a little research.


I’m sure he thought it was sarcasm. I certainly did. Mass attendance was on the decline prior to Vatican II. The Council did not somehow cause it. Additionally, liturgical reforms were already taking place – there is no guarantee that the changes to the Mass would not have occurred without the council.


The Church had small problems before Vatican II but the reforms of the Holy Mass, destroying of High Altars made for the Worship of God.

These activities were never called for by Vatican II. But very few people actually care about the Truth of Vatican II.

Is this how you view traditional Catholics? As a “weird curiosity,” “marginalized,” and “isolated” like the Amish to the point where they have no impact on the world around them?

1 Like

It was a very uncharitable post deconjeff


No, and don’t put words in my mouth. I said that is how society would view Catholics in this thought experiment world in which Vatican II never occurred.

touchy touchy


That is nonsense

The vast majority of traditional Catholics don’t want or care about human respect.

We care about saving souls

1 Like

Easy there. I didn’t put words in your mouth. That’s why I asked a question – to find out what you thought rather than assuming.

I am confused, however, by the dissonance that seems to exist in your responses. Seemingly, traditional Catholics are living in the thought experiment proposed by the OP. So it would follow, then, that assumptions made about what the world would be like if VII hadn’t taken place should correlate with traditional Catholic families and communities.

1 Like

No, it wasn’t. (Assuming you meant me laughing) because I was quite sure you were joking. Frankly, the fact that anyone can actually believe what you posted is both frightening to me and very concerning because it reflects a perspective completely out of touch with reality. Vatican II was called to address what the prelates could clearly see were mounting problems with the Church and the Faithful. Mass attendance was already in decline in the West and there was no significant growth in the Church in Africa or Asia. Issues needed to be addressed. Admittedly not all the reforms were perfectly thought out or implemented, but the Council overall rescued our faith from virtual annihilation.

And unlike you, I am going to assume good faith rather than ill will in the fact that you refer to me by the name of a rodent control product, and presume that is a typo.


That is nonsense.

You can’t separate respect from the ability to save souls. If people generally think you are mentally imbalanced, they aren’t going to take you seriously.


I am not mentally unbalanced and human respect simply makes us unable to convert people since we don’t want to hurt their feelings

1 Like

The Church would feel irrelevant, for the point of Councils and continual development is to respond to the needs of the age.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.