A traditional catholic defends the Neocatechumenal Way


#1

Hello everyone,
I consider myself a traditionalist. I think the Tridentine Mass is superior to the Novus Ordo Mass. I love gregorian chant, church architecture, latin, etc. I practise traditional devotions such as novenas, the Rosary, the Liturgy of the Hours, etc. I venerate and pray to the CC´s great saints as has always been catholic custom. I love to read and learn about catholic history and teaching, especially the Doctors of the Church and the Church Fathers.

However, I recognize that not everyone sees things as I do. I am hurt when I read things like this on CAF forums;

  • fighting Aruguello’s destructive, anti-Catholic ideology is a duty of Catholics, despite the fact that the movement has permission to exist.* Quote by Dauphin

The NCW is a heretical movement. Anything that denies the Priesthood of the new testament is heretical. Quote by Paul Andrew 83

I have many friends in the Neocatechumenal Way, and they are wonderful catholics who adhere wholeheartedly to the Church´s teaching, especially on issues that most catholics these days dissent over; ie birth control and sexuality. They are NOT heretics.

It´s very easy to pick a sentence, take it completely out of context and twist it to mean whatever suits you. Nobody in the NCW “denies the priesthood”. To suggest such a thing is uncharitable and stupid.

If we are to judge according to the fruits we ought to be a bit more cautious. Before condemning this CATHOLIC movement outright we ought to look into it first and examine the fruits. There may be many things we dislike and disagree with, but the important thing is that God is transforming people´s lives through this movement and helping them towards Heaven.

May I finally make a humble suggestion; let´s all stick to the job that our Lord gave us, namely becoming holy. That involves looking after our families, caring for those around us, nuturing our prayer life, helping our parish in any way we can and living according to God´s commandments.

For us laity, the pursuit of holiness DOES NOT INVOLVE FIGHTING THE NCW!!! Please leave disciplinary issues to those to whom God has entrusted them; the bishops and the Holy Father.

I´m ready for a battering from all you trads out there. Don´t disappoint me!:thumbsup: God bless you all, especially anyone in the NCW.


#2

Q.E.D


#3

From what I read about the founders of NW, they are not in the right of Church’s teaching. Now I have never been to an NW meeting or Mass so I cannot say what goes on, but probably there are two extremes, those who use teach the various tools (such as using guitars and that kind of stuff) in the NW in accordance of true Catholic teaching and those who teach it in error, that down play Catholic teachings and everything.


#4

I think Joe Benedict closed the previous thread for a reason… If anyone has questions or problems with “The Way” there is plenty of pro and con views out on the wider web and in these forums.

I say lets leave it be.


#5

:popcorn:


#6

Yes – we should look after our family, care for those around us, etc. To me this means doing the best I can to let my family and those around me fall into error.

What you “know” of those who are members of the NCW – is the surface — what they want to show you.

The NCW is a cult-- a cult that breaks people down psychologically and spiritually and then “builds” them up with Kiko Arguello’ s erroneous “ideology”. The “fruit” of the NCW is not Catholicism.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2763121#post2763121
Quote=jhelene
I had posted earlier in this thread that I was in the NCW for several years. To answer those who said that the NCW never would encourage spouses to leave if one isnt on board with the NCW is wrong. I have witnessed it first hand. I was there when a catechist told a member of my community to tell her husband that she has a "new family now and she didnt need him anymore."
I have also witnessed and experienced first hand the stress that occurs when one spouse is a member and the other isnt.** And have it come down to a “them or me” stance.**
As for the scrutinies it can be a heartwrenching experience. I have seen participants visibly shake with fear, uncontrollable crying, and one person close to passing out. What those who have not experienced it have to realize that the innermost personal feelings, and personal experiences are expressed during a scrutiny. Infidelity, drug or alcohol abuse, sexual experiences of the teenage community members can come up. As well as feelings of one spouse to another, and their shortcomings. This is all discussed in front of a panel of lay catechists and a NCW priest. Who then give their opinion on how the person being scrutinized can change, as well as the path they the (catechists) think they will go down if they dont change. **They told one teenager that she would be a whore or prostitute is she didnt follow the NCW. **Most of what is discussed is what should be only talked about in a confession.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2475240#post2475240

Quote=nightengale
We are eagerly awaiting the Holy Father’s decision on the Statutes - which ironically does not state all the abuses that go on at the Eucharist. I have found out that the only change re Communion is that they will now stand to receive! Nothing about the bread which is baked and crumbs can be dropped especially by children, also no one is allowed to receive on the tongue. **I have been told by a Cannon lawyer that the Consecration is not complete until the Priest consumes the Eucharist. This is very frightening. As the Priest has Communion with the rest of the people and then has the Blood of Christ after this, it makes it very difficult or impossible for anyone to receive on the tongue. **It would mean you would be consuming the Eucharist before the Priest. Everyone stands for the Consecration as kneeling is for ‘slaves’. Also it is considered a Celebration and the Sacrifice of the Mass is never mentioned. There is so much wrong with it and the followers are blind to all this. Anything that Kiko says is gospel and no one ever contradicts. I should know as I was in it for 30 years! I began to rebel about 10 years ago and many attempts were made to bring me in line but with no success. Our Blessed Mother had other plans for me and now I enjoy daily Mass and Exposition and follow the Marian way of life. It also means that I am free on Saturday nights to be with my husband - something we never enjoyed when I was in the ‘way’. The only problem, as I mentioned before, is that some of my family members are heavily involved and this creates a lot of problems. I am praying that Kiko and Carmen will be brought in line and that true and healthy fruit can issue from this way. **They are good at Evangelising and Vocations but into Christianity but not into the true Catholic Church.**God bless


#7

Where there’s smoke there’s fire


#8

Caught this after it was to late to edit. The above should read:

To me this means doing the best I can to Not let my family and those around me fall into error.


#9

We must be fair and balanced

zenit.org/article-24720?l=english


#10

What is so balanced about deception. The NCW has been doing it for more than 40 yrs-- Arguello is an expert.


#11

I just can’t fathom that our last 3 Pontiffs could be ignorant of the deception.

Don’t they have “people”?


#12

It really shouldn’t be that hard to fathom. Approx. 70-80 % of the Church fell into Arianism right under the Pope’s nose at one time.


#13

Perhaps if nothing else, this particular piece of slander could be documented? I read the thread earlier in the background and saw this go unchallenged. It sounded so idiotic I did not jump in earlier, but perhaps it is time to retract or document.


#14

While this movement has borne some fruit, it still does not take away the fact that the Neocatechumenal Way has done some very ilicit things to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In fact, one of the things that the Holy Father did during his first months in office was to formally inform the members of the movement that these ilicit activities needed to be stopped. If these did not cease, their statutes would not be approved.

Here is the letter that he instructed Francis Cardinal Arinze, then Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, to send to the group:

Congregatio de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum

Prot. 2520/03/L

From Vatican City, December 1, 2005

To the esteemed Mr. Kiko Argüello, Ms. Carmen Hernandez, and Rev. Father Mario Pezzi,

Following the conversations with this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments on the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist in the communities of the Neocatechumenal Way, in keeping with the guidelines issued in the meeting with you on November 11 of this year, I am to inform you of the Holy Father’s decisions.

In the celebration of the Holy Mass, the Neocatechumenal Way shall accept and follow the liturgical books approved by the Church, without omitting or adding anything. Furthermore, in regard to some elements the guidelines and clarifications are emphasized as follows:

  1. Sunday is the “Dies Domini” as the Servant of God Pope John Paul II wished to illustrate in the Apostolic Letter on the Lord’s Day. Therefore the Neocatechumenal Way must enter into dialogue with the diocesan bishop in order to make it clear that the community of the Neocatechumenal Way is incorporated into the parish even in the context of the liturgical celebrations. At least one Sunday per month, the communities of the Neocatechumenal Way must participate in the Holy Mass of the parish community.
  1. As for any admonitions issued before the readings, these must be brief. Adherence must also be shown to what is set out in the “Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani” (nn. 105 and 128) and to the Praenotanda of the “Ordo Lectionum Missae” (nn. 15, 19, 38, 42).
  1. The homily, because of its nature and importance, is reserved to the priest or deacon (cf. Codex Iuris Canonici, can. 767 § 1). As for the occasional contribution of testimonies on the part of the lay faithful, the proper places and methods for these are indicated in the Interdicasterial Instruction “Ecclesiae de Mysterio,” which was approved “in specific form” by Pope John Paul II and published on August 15, 1997. In this document, sections 2 and 3 of article 3 read as follows:

§2 - “It is permitted to have a brief instruction that helps explain better the liturgy that is being celebrated, and even, in exceptional circumstances, a few testimonies, as long as these conform to the liturgical norms, are offered on the occasion of Eucharistic liturgies celebrated on particular days (for seminarians, the sick, etc.), and are thought truly helpful as an illustration of the regular homily delivered by the celebrating priest. These instructions and testimonies must not assume characteristics that might cause them to be confused with the homily.”

§3 - “The possibility of ‘dialogue’ during the homily (cf. Directorium de Missis cum Pueris, no. 48) can be used occasionally and with prudence by the celebrating minister as a means of exposition, which does not transfer to others the duty of preaching.”

Careful attention must also be paid to the Instruction “Redemptionis Sacramentum,” no. 74.

  1. On the exchange of peace, permission is granted to the Neocatechumenal Way to continue using the indult already granted, pending further instructions.
  1. On the manner of receiving Holy Communion, a period of transition (not exceeding two years) is granted to the Neocatechumenal Way to pass from the widespread manner of receiving Holy Communion in its communities (seated, with a cloth-covered table placed at the center of the church instead of the dedicated altar in the sanctuary) to the normal way in which the entire Church receives Holy Communion. This means that the Neocatechumenal Way must begin to adopt the manner of distributing the Body and Blood of Christ that is provided in the liturgical books.
  1. The Neocatechumenal Way must also make use of the other Eucharistic Prayers contained in the missal, and not only Eucharistic Prayer II.

In short, the Neocatechumenal Way, in its celebration of the Holy Mass, should follow the approved liturgical books, keeping in mind what is laid out above under the numbers 1,2,3,4,5, and 6.

Acknowledging the favors that the Lord has bestowed upon the Church through the many activities of the Neocatechumenal Way, I take this occasion to extend to you my best regards.

  • Francis Card. Arinze
    Prefect

The movement, in essence, had to change its ways or risk losing approval of their statutues. Pope Benedict was very clear in his instructions, even though Kiko’s initial reaction was that the Holy Father’s directives were merely suggestions and not mandates.


#15

I’m sure you must have references for your last statement?


#16

If the Mass is not the Holy Sacrifice — there is no need for the ordained priesthood — now is there.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=3817909#post3817909

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=1460106#post1460106
uote=pieuse
I agree with that because they say 1 thing to him and people and then say a different thing to us. I lost my peace of mind since I’ve joined and especially realised that. They kind of twist words, say they don’t really like the Adoration and they say it but cleverly.
So people don’t realise that. But the way they started in our group was by telling us something like that: after the recognisation of Christian as a state religion, there were adding like the sacrifice. 1 of our catechist who is also a priest said that and was saying that we weren’t supposed to be adoring but receiving… I was a bit shocked becasue by what he said it was like annihilating what the Church said about the apparition of the L.ord to St. Margaret Mary Alacoque (the Sacred Heart). When I spotted that error to our responsible, he denied it bluntly. But I can prove it as I have recorded the convivence on audio tapes.

I’m anyway interested by people who have experienced the scrutinies.
Thanx a lot for your help.
Pieuse

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/200…lowly-for.html

nonymous said…

i was in the “way” for almost 2 years. i didn’t like it from the start. it did seem cultish to me. you never knew what was going on. everything was secret.

the priest taught us that the tridentine mass was defective because it turned the mass from a banquet to a sacrifice. this happened after christianity was adopted by rome and incorperated pagan elements.

i could go on and on about the problems. our group disbanded shortly after we left.
13 April, 2008 06:39

forums.catholic.com/showthrea…catechu menal

popebenedict16.blogspot.com/2…vi-brings.html

heathcliff huxtable said…
i belong to the “way” and have experience with the liturgy.** first off, i was told during the catechesis that the sacraficial aspect of the mass was a result of pagan inculturization shortly after constantine’s reign **when the eucharist went from the catecombs and homes into basilicas. they said that the original primitive understanding of the eucharist was a celebration of the passover of Christ and was strictly a sacred banquet and not a sacrifice to appease God who didn’t need it.

at the end of the way’s mass, we would hold hands and dance around the table and sing some jewish song. i also remember people becoming very upset when we were told we had to recive the bread on our hands sitting down. one lady started to cry and the priest told her it was the devil doing it.


#17

Yes there is. There is not real presence without an ordained priest. Is the post you gave the source for this “no priesthood” stuff. That is so weak. It is making an assumption and putting words where they were not said.

Any time one thinks they add one and one and get two here, they really should check their math before posting. You can demonize anyone by making assumptions, conclusions and generally going beyond what is said. If this Way stuff is all so bad, it should not be neccessary to add to what they say to find fault with them. If such tactics are neccessary, then we should must understand that you leave Church teaching, logic and argument and enter the world of your own opinion.

All we really have in the above post is one person who was told the sacrificial aspect of the Mass came from paganism. That alone does not damn the movement and is easy enough to respond to. A simple reading of the New Testament shows how ridiculous this is.


#18

And as happens with the NCW – benedictgal – the letter was twisted and spun by the NCW-- from correction to “endorsement” of the NCW abberations.

adoremus.org/0206NewsViews.html

A spokesman for the Neocatechumenal Way in the US responded to the directives, suggesting that Cardinal Arinze’s letter was intended as an endorsement of the group’s practices. Giuseppe Gennarini, who is responsible for Neocatechumenal communities in the United States, told Catholic News Service in Rome December 29, “The most important thing about the letter is that it allows certain liturgical adaptations”.


#19

This is exactly how Sandro Magister exposed the whole story. Read what he wrote in a follow-up article a year later:

For example, the Neocatechumenals receive communion seated, around an altar that is shaped and decorated like a large, square dinner table. They divide and consume a large unleavened loaf, made with two-thirds white flour and one-third whole wheat flour, which is prepared and baked for a quarter of an hour, all according to detailed rules established by Kiko. They drink the wine from cups that are passed from hand to hand, always in a seated position.

But the pope wants them to “pass to the normal way in which the entire Church receives Holy Communion,” within no more than two years’ time. The details of this request and others are set forth in a letter dated December 1, 2005, written in the name of the pope to the heads of the Way by cardinal Francis Arinze, prefect of the Vatican congregation for the liturgy: a letter made public by www.chiesa.

And so, in their reply to Benedict XVI, Kiko, Carmen, and Father Pezzi stated that they were willing to “follow in every way, with great respect and obedience, the rubrics of the Roman Missal.” They promised that they will make arrangements with the bishop of each diocese for their own members to participate in the Sunday Mass together with the rest of the faithful “at least one Sunday a month.” But on the crucial point of communion, they make it clear that they want to keep going their own way.

They stop, in fact, at thanking the pope for granting them two more years. And then they return to defending their manner of distributing communion. They give as the model for this the “eschatological banquet” at which Christ has the disciples “sit down,” as written in Luke 12:37: “He will have them recline at table, and will come to wait on them.” Furthermore, they emphasize that giving communion “in this way” is an essential instrument for converting those who are far removed from the Church, and that abandoning it would compromise their mission.

Here is the letter that the Neocatechumenal Way sent to the Holy Father:

Porto San Giorgio, January 17, 2006

Dearest Father,

The love of God the Father, the holy humility of Christ, and the consolation of the Holy Spirit be with You.

We would like to thank You from the bottom of our hearts for the Audience You granted to us, with the sending forth of 200 families, and for Your words, in which You emphasized “the importance… of the Holy Mass in evangelization” and that – as “your long experience can well attest” – “the centrality of the mystery of Christ celebrated in the liturgical rites is a privileged and indispensable way to build living and persevering Christian communities.”

After the Audience, all of the 700 itinerant catechists from all the nations met together, and we are very content with the “norms” that Cardinal Arinze, Prefect of the Congregation of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, imparted to us in Your name. In this regard, we wish to express our gratitude to You, to Cardinal Arinze, and to the Congregation for what is written in the letter.

We renewed together our willingness to follow in everything, with great respect and obedience, the rubrics of the Roman Missal (Gloria, Credo, Lavabo, Orate fratres, Agnus Dei…).

With respect to the first point of the letter (“at least one Sunday per month, the Communities of the Neocatechumenal Way must participate in the Holy Mass of the parish community), each team of itinerant catechists will speak with the Bishop of each Diocese in order to arrange this participation, paying particular attention to the least brethren and those farthest away.

We also wish to thank you for the benevolence, mercy, and goodness You have shown to those farthest away in allowing the moving of the sign of peace and in granting a period of two years for the adaptation of the manner of distributing the Communion of the Body and the Blood of the Lord: we have always shown to the many brothers who have emerged from hell, full of wounds and of self-loathing, that in the Holy Eucharist the Lord makes present his love, dying and rising for them; and not only that, but prepares a table, an eschatological banquet, which makes Heaven present and where He himself, full of love, has them sit down and comes to serve them: “He will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them” (Lk 12:37).

In this way, every time we celebrate the Eucharist we experience the power this sacrament has to draw them into the Passover of Christ, bringing them from sadness to joy, from darkness to light, from death to life…

The Lord is preparing a people to evangelize the pagans. There are millions of people today who do not know Christ. The reality is that the Lord is calling us to evangelize as Christian communities that make the life of heaven present in our midst.

Thank You, Your Holiness! Together with the Cardinals and the many Bishops who have supported us, and above all in the name of the many who were far away and today bless Christ, we thank You with our whole heart.

Asking for Your Apostolic Blessing,

Kiko Argüello, Carmen Hernández, Fr. Mario Pezzi

And, I thought that the spin doctors were exclusive to both the Texas Legislature and the US Congress. With all due respect, what the movement wrote and what Cardinal Arinze wrote are two entirely different statements.


#20

pnewton, – I believe the thread with Arguello statements is still in this forum—but I will included it below. You say one person was told the sacrificial aspect came from paganism --apparently you missed where Arguello made that same reference to the priesthood. Now --you can put the two together - can you now.

"For three centuries, the primitive Church had a serious catechumenate, in which before receiving baptism the catechumens had to show that they had faith, that they had eternal life inside them because they did works of life, works which showed that the risen Christ lived in them, that they had received the grace of divine nature, through the Holy Spirit.

Here we can see that baptism was the gestation to a new creation, where the synthesis of the announcement of the kerygma, the Good News, the change of moral life and the liturgy were one single thing.

These Christians were inserted in living communities. Thy had no temples, they had no altars, they had no priests like the pagans, they met in houses, but God himself placed these communities on the lamp-stand, and through persecution, they were able to show the signs of the new man who proclaims the Sermon of the Mount: “Do not resist evil, if someone strikes you on the right cheek, offer him the left, if someone takes you to court to steal your tunic, give him your cloak as well, if someone steals what is yours, do not ask for it back, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.”"


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