Abortion


#1

First of all let me say I am 100% pro-life but I have some questions.

Earlier today I watched this video:
youtube.com/watch?v=jEFWDYB0rWo&feature=player_embedded

And I believe the guy was out of line with some of the things he said and the fact that he brought a camera to show the whole world what he did but what happened to his wife makes me curious.

I’ve always felt abortion to be wrong, if the baby is going to live but in this case where the baby was going to die (lets say 100% sure it was going to die in the womb [This might be false but i’m making a hypothetical situation here]) would it be wrong to abort then?

Thanks all y que Dios los Bendiga from Puerto Ricoooo!


#2

Yes, it would still be wrong. Every individual has the God-given right to live every second of their life until God calls them home. No human has the right to take another human’s life, even if they’re “going to die” anyway, except in the case of self-defense. This is not a case of self-defense, though. No one is “attacking” the mother. God’s will be done, not man’s. :slight_smile:

Here’s a couple of good video’s on abortion, that you might enjoy:

alabamacatholicresources.com/movies.html

alabamacatholicresources.com/movies2.html

God bless! :slight_smile:


#3

[quote="prcath, post:1, topic:217620"]

I've always felt abortion to be wrong, if the baby is going to live but in this case where the baby was going to die (lets say 100% sure it was going to die in the womb [This might be false but i'm making a hypothetical situation here]) would it be wrong to abort then?

[/quote]

This argument could be used to justify euthanasia as well... at what point do you draw the line? :shrug:

God gives us life - and only in God's time is it taken from us.
Thou shalt not KILL means exactly that... YOU shall not take the life of another human being. If God is calling that human home to be with Him, it must be done in God's time...


#4

Yo vivo in Marbella, Augadilla por trece anos, y voy para Collegio de San Carlos. Mi esposa esta una Borinqua.

Not sure if I spelled all that correctly, it has been a while.

PRCAT
The world desparately wishes to provide a believable excuse that can morally rationalize away the deficit and error of abortion, but at the end of the day, neither deformity, illness, heredity disease etc, etc. can surplant or replace the grace of GOD's mercy upon the child and the family for whom the child was chosen.
Whenever, for whatever reason one will replace a teaching of GOD for a rule of law by man, that one will always be at fault.


#5

A little background on the video:

"Aaron Gouveia videoed his confrontation with two anti-abortion protesters outside Women's Health Services on Harvard Street earlier this year. He accompanied his wife there to have an abortion after doctors told them their 16-week-old fetus, the one they'd already picked out a name for, had mermaid syndrome, no kidneys, no bladder and no chance of surviving."
Here's his blog on the subject if you want more info - goodmenproject.com/2010/10/23/confronting-life/

Looks like God made this one to be called home pretty quickly.


#6

[quote="_Locke, post:5, topic:217620"]
A little background on the video:

"Aaron Gouveia videoed his confrontation with two anti-abortion protesters outside Women's Health Services on Harvard Street earlier this year. He accompanied his wife there to have an abortion after doctors told them their 16-week-old fetus, the one they'd already picked out a name for, had mermaid syndrome, no kidneys, no bladder and no chance of surviving."
Here's his blog on the subject if you want more info - goodmenproject.com/2010/10/23/confronting-life/

Looks like God made this one to be called home pretty quickly.

[/quote]

There was a documentary on tv not too long ago about a girl with mermaid syndrome. She died recently around 10 or so years old. Obviously God had a plan for her life even with her difficult diagnosis.

Would it be wrong to shoot a person who was terminal with cancer? Absolutely. The point of whether or not someone will eventually die is irrelevant. We are all going to die eventually. Choosing to end a life is murder.


#7

Their choice is a lifetime of remembering this child as a dismembered fetus.

Which he blocks out with anger and deflects onto innocent bystanders.


#8

Only 3 people EVER who did not have the usual kidney and bladder complications survived birth. To say this child would have survived birth would be pure wishful thinking. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid_syndrome)

What about killing in self defense? Justified war? What about killing animals? I’m sure you have reservations about always calling killing murder. There’s an obvious flaw in your analogy and I think it’d be embarrassing to try to explain it.

This is my last post in this thread as I don’t want to argue about the morality of abortion (I know better than that, this being a Catholic forum). I just wanted to inject some facts about this specific case so you can be educated while you call the man heartless.


#9

Wow, what a horrible way to handle his grief! If in fact, this is true, he certainly sounds like he's following a script.

I wish these women had been praying instead of holding signs. It would have been impossible for him to displace his anger onto them if they were standing or kneeling holding rosaries. I don't know if they did shout at his wife, but this shows what can happen from the display of graphic signs or yelling out at women going into an abortion clinic.

Instead of remaining in the pain of their decision, they can displace their anger and shame onto the protesters. They feel totally justified then, and that can spread. Just take a look at some of the comments on YouTube.

I am so sorry that people don't have the love of God in their lives. This couple must have listened to the doctors and society to tell them what to do about their baby, and they have been betrayed. So they take it out on the people who are trying to help no babies get aborted. (I wonder if they'd have aborted the baby if it had been Down syndrome, or some other genetic problem. I kind of think they might have. I'm thankful that their first baby seems to be healthy.)

What a twisted world we live in.


#10

I have a friend who is a very strong Catholic and something similar happened to her. She was pregnant with a baby with an problem that there was no way the child would survive after birth. The baby was growing but it only had a spinal cord, it did not have a brain and it was not going to develop one. She and her husband were distraught about this and they choose to end the pregnancy because it would have been cruel for the baby and the mom ton continue. But, they did seek the blessing of their priest before going through the procedure and they received the blessing. Also, they did name the baby and they buried it. So, there is no blanket answer for this kind of problem and people on this forum need to be a little more open minded. I am completely pro-life and I am a scientist yet I don't agree with IVF. However, I feel like this guy was right. He was protecting his wife. Those women apparently yelled at his wife and had no idea what was going on or what was happening.

Also, just because that little girl on TV survived for 10 years doesn't mean all babies will. As a matter of fact, I seem to recall that she was the ONLY living mermaid child in the world. That tells you something right there.


#11

My Grandmother used to always say “character will out”, meaning there will always come a time, a situation, when a persons real character will be on display. Well, the man who shot that video has displayed his own real character. He is selfish, self centred and morally and intellectualy weak.

I heard him forcefully telling those two women holding the signs how their protests would mean that people like he and his wife would have to actually put up with his wife having a dead foetus inside her. From the evidence of one poster here, Barbkw, that was an assumption he made and he has built his illogical argument on that assumption. Notwithstanding that, women have been forced to endure dead foetuses inside them for millenia, for a variety of reasons. Foetul death in utero can happen for a multitude of reasons and has been happening ever since human beings hit planet Earth. It happened to my wife and I, when we lost a baby in utero two weeks before its due date. My wife was forced to carry a dead child inside her until doctors induced it, as it became obvious mother nature had taken a holiday. It is a horrible experience, for sure. However, this man allowed his personal grief to overcome him to such an extent that he railed against the people who are working their insides off to prevent the needless killing of millions of unborn babies. On the one hand he is lamenting the death of an unborn baby (his own), yet defending the right to kill a baby if the circumstances of the birth don’t suit. That’s quite a contradiction. He can no longer, then, argue against a young women who wants an abortion because the baby is just plain inconvenient, to use one example. In the process he is defending his right to prevent his wife from having to endure what women have had to endure down through the ages, except this time, he is defending his right to forcefully rip the unborn child out of the womb in just case it ends up dead before its due date. In effect, the result will be the same, in that she will be expelling a dead foetus from her womb, but his way will mean he and his wife are responsible. Despite this responsibility which he is denying, he rails against those who would protect unborn babies from a forced death.

I hope one day he watches that video and feels great shame over what he did, both to his wife and to the women he railed against, when he was in an anguished state. I hope one day he watches that video and feels ashamed at exposing himself for what he really is - weak, illogical and selfish.


#12

[quote="noclevername, post:10, topic:217620"]
I have a friend who is a very strong Catholic and something similar happened to her. She was pregnant with a baby with an problem that there was no way the child would survive after birth. The baby was growing but it only had a spinal cord, it did not have a brain and it was not going to develop one. She and her husband were distraught about this and they choose to end the pregnancy because it would have been cruel for the baby and the mom ton continue. But, they did seek the blessing of their priest before going through the procedure and they received the blessing.

[/quote]

:(

With my third pregnancy, I was told that "something was wrong," and further testing was "necessary." I declined all further testing and ultrasounds, because if "something" were indeed found, I could not stand the thought of a genetic counselor or doctor advising me to kill my child. Never.

Far more cruel for a mother to kill her own baby, than to go through the experience of holding her child as the child dies soon after (or during) birth. I would want to cherish every single minute with my baby, that I possibly could, so that my baby would know nothing but LOVE her entire short life. Nothing cruel about that, and I don't expect anything less from anyone else.


#13

I'm 100% sure that everyone is going to die (eventually). That doesn't make our lives not worth living, even if our lives will be brief. :shrug:


#14

At the Fraternity I started my profession at for the Secular Franciscan Order was a woman who had epilepsy as I did. One day we talked about it - it was because her mother had tried to have a partial birth abortion and the right top hemisphere of her brain had been removed. She survived anyway. To say that choice wins over life is always wrong.


#15

#16

Apparently you all missed the part about my friend having a blessing from teh Priest. And you missed the part of "no brain".

And that man was protecting his wife. Those women yelled at his wife and she was already in a horrible state of mind knowing what was going on with her unborn child. I'lll say it again HE WAS PROTECTING HIS WIFE!!!! It's like a mother bear protecting her cub. That's why he lashed out on those women. It a lot more to do with the fact that he was PROTECTING HIS WIFE than what he was really yelling at them about.


#17

[quote="noclevername, post:16, topic:217620"]
Apparently you all missed the part about my friend having a blessing from teh Priest. And you missed the part of "no brain".

And that man was protecting his wife. Those women yelled at his wife and she was already in a horrible state of mind knowing what was going on with her unborn child. I'lll say it again HE WAS PROTECTING HIS WIFE!!!! It's like a mother bear protecting her cub. That's why he lashed out on those women. It a lot more to do with the fact that he was PROTECTING HIS WIFE than what he was really yelling at them about.

[/quote]

The priest cannot give that kind of blessing for an abortion - a delivery resulting in a stillbirth -yes - but your friend clearly yelled that this was not the case. To do anything else or to be complicit such as your friends priest is an offense of self-excommunication. I hope your statements and the video of your friends statements and forwarded to your bishop or Archbishop.


#18

[quote="joandarc2008, post:17, topic:217620"]
n*. I hope your statements and the video of your friends statements and forwarded to your bishop or Archbishop.*

[/quote]

?????

They actually induced her labor very early in the pregnancy so it essentially was a still birth but it was what it was.


#19

I apologize I was getting you and the OP confused and no in the case of your friend it would be a case of double effect if there was a case where it was also dangerous to the mother - other than that than no it would be an illicit act - if the child was dead already than it is not an abortion it is a D&C which is the same procedure but is used to evacuate the uterus in cases where the miscarriage has not occurred to prevent a risk of bleeding etc. My apologies for the confusion.


#20

I know of an organization called Prenatal Partners for Life. They encourage bringing to term even babies that have little or no chance and EVERY parent that does is grateful for the opportunity and the support and the graces that come with that choice.

I don’t recall the name of the organization, but I did attend a meeting about prenatal hospice once, that provides support and services in such cases. I think the hospice must have been Catholic or had some kind of connection as a priest was there, as well as women telling their stories. One woman made it clear that her doctor pressured her to have an abortion and offered her no other options at all. She felt she had no choice, until she found out about the hospice. Another woman said that while she was told by her OB that her child would only live weeks or a few months, that her child lived almost until her second birthday.

It does seem that many who say they are pro-choice mean “choice” in the way Henry Ford offered his customers a choice of colors for the Model T – as long as it was black. Abortion isn’t seen as “a possible option” or even the “best option” but the only option in cases where the baby isn’t physically “perfect” or is being born into a less than perfect social situation.

I do think that many women who “choose” to abort in such a situation have reduced culpability. I’ve vented before in another topic about people being uncharitable toward doctors, but the kind of doctors who pressure women to abort certainly deserve some of it. Now, I’ve been pro-life for a while (used to be pro-choice in HS because all my friends were but changed my mind around college). So I wouldn’t even offer abortion in the first place. But, I know there are other issues, such as people refusing vaccines or blood transfusions, where I might need to battle temptation to take a browbeating approach.


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