About the Catechism


#1

Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church (you can find it at vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM ) an infallible document?


#2

I don’t believe Catholics refer to any Church document as infallible in and of itself. Otherwise, people would claim that any typos found in it disprove infallibility. Just like no one says that a lousy translation of Scripture means that Scripture isn’t infallible.

Scott


#3

[quote=Scott Waddell]I don’t believe Catholics refer to any Church document as infallible in and of itself. Otherwise, people would claim that any typos found in it disprove infallibility. Just like no one says that a lousy translation of Scripture means that Scripture isn’t infallible.
[/quote]

I have no idea what that means. You’re saying that a scribal error indicates that the document cannot be inerrant? Who would argue that?

However, I’ll ask the question a different way to see where this goes:

Where can I find any infallible particular infallible teaching from the Catholic church? For the sake of my point, I don’t need all of them: I just need to find one of them. Where can I find one of them?


#4

[quote=centuri0n]I have no idea what that means. You’re saying that a scribal error indicates that the document cannot be inerrant? Who would argue that?

[/quote]

Oddly enough I have heard people argue this every now and then.

Where can I find any infallible particular infallible teaching from the Catholic church? For the sake of my point, I don’t need all of them: I just need to find one of them. Where can I find one of them?

How about the Trinity? Are you asking where you find the Church teaching this?

Scott


#5

The Catechism is not an infallible document. It is not even per se a magisterial document; it was written for catechesis.

If you can find a given teaching in the Catechism, the footnotes should indicate where you can find the applicable magisterial documents. And if those referenced documents are infallible, then the teaching is infallible.


#6

I am no expert on the legalities of all this, but I can say:

  1. In the Apostolic Letter Laetamur Magnopere in the front, Pope John Paul says among other things, “The Church now has at her disposal this new, authoritative exposition of the one and perennial apostolic faith, and it will serve as a “valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion” and as a “sure norm for teaching the faith” as well as a “sure and authentic reference text” for preparing local catechisms.”

  2. In the Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum also in the front, the Pope says "The [CCC]…is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illuminated by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium.

There are other related comments as well. Isn’t that infallaible, esxpecially if these two documents are taken in their entirety?


#7

first answer was right, Catechism itself is not infallible, it is a catechetical work, but in explaining doctrine it cites the infallible documents and proclamations which enunciate fully the doctrines. for the poster who asks “where can I find the infallible teaching” get the companion volume, Introduction to the Catechism, which gives the full sources for the footnotes, fuller exposition of the doctrines, and refers you to those infallible proclamations and documents.


#8

[quote=centuri0n]you can find it at vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
[/quote]

Slightly off-topic, but I’ve found that the version at the Vatican often has missing paragraphs or other technical problems. I’ve never encountered problems with the version at usccb.org though.


#9

[quote=Catholic2003]The Catechism is not an infallible document. It is not even per se a magisterial document; it was written for catechesis.
[/quote]

Not to repeat myself, but I’m not sure what that means. Are you saying that it is not a product of the magisterium, or are you saying that no kerygma was exercised to produce this document?

If you can find a given teaching in the Catechism, the footnotes should indicate where you can find the applicable magisterial documents. And if those referenced documents are infallible, then the teaching is infallible.

OK: How do I know which of those documents are infallible?


#10

[quote=Timidity]Slightly off-topic, but I’ve found that the version at the Vatican often has missing paragraphs or other technical problems. I’ve never encountered problems with the version at usccb.org though.
[/quote]

I chalk that up to scribal error.

:thumbsup:


#11

[quote=awalt]I am no expert on the legalities of all this, but I can say:

  1. In the Apostolic Letter Laetamur Magnopere in the front, Pope John Paul says among other things, “The Church now has at her disposal this new, authoritative exposition of the one and perennial apostolic faith, and it will serve as a “valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion” and as a “sure norm for teaching the faith” as well as a “sure and authentic reference text” for preparing local catechisms.”

  2. In the Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum also in the front, the Pope says "The [CCC]…is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illuminated by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium.

There are other related comments as well. Isn’t that infallaible, esxpecially if these two documents are taken in their entirety?
[/quote]

Good for you! You are actually READING the CCC – not just standing next to it!

Let’s see if anyone else has comments on your statement …
:eek:


#12

[quote=puzzleannie]first answer was right, Catechism itself is not infallible, it is a catechetical work, but in explaining doctrine it cites the infallible documents and proclamations which enunciate fully the doctrines. for the poster who asks “where can I find the infallible teaching” get the companion volume, Introduction to the Catechism, which gives the full sources for the footnotes, fuller exposition of the doctrines, and refers you to those infallible proclamations and documents.
[/quote]

So you’re saying that all the documents noted in the Catechism to make doctrinal points are not infallible?

How does the magisterium, in your view, make a fallible point about doctrine? Moreover, how can it use a fallible point in the act of catechesis?


#13

[quote=Scott Waddell]Oddly enough I have heard people argue this every now and then.
[/quote]

Scott, without being disrespectful, I have also heard people argue in favor of Socialism and the minimum wage. That doesn’t mean that when they say something it changes the facts.

People who are arguing that typos/scribal errors indicate fallibility in the text do not have the first understanding of the definition of the words "inerrant’ or “infallible” in the context of this discussion.

How about the Trinity? Are you asking where you find the Church teaching this?

Sure, we could do that. I’m really asking a more general question. If I were a Catholic looking for the infallible teaching on something that’s puzzling me – whatever it is – where do I look? That is, how do I know as a Catholic that something being taught to me is infallible as opposed to being something “pending revision”?
:confused:


#14

[quote=centuri0n]Scott, without being disrespectful, I have also heard people argue in favor of Socialism and the minimum wage. That doesn’t mean that when they say something it changes the facts.

People who are arguing that typos/scribal errors indicate fallibility in the text do not have the first understanding of the definition of the words "inerrant’ or “infallible” in the context of this discussion.
[/quote]

Are you somehow under the impression that I accept the scribal errors argument? I do not. You asked who would argue this, implying that no one ever would. I was just stating a mere fact that some people do this, and I was not trying to comment on whether or not they have their heads up their rears.

Scott


#15

[quote=centuri0n]Not to repeat myself, but I’m not sure what that means. Are you saying that it is not a product of the magisterium, or are you saying that no kerygma was exercised to produce this document?
[/quote]

I don’t have the exact Ratzinger quote in front of me right now; it went something like the magisterial weight of any teaching contained in the Catechism is exactly the same as it was before the Catechism was promulgated. The idea is that the Catechism didn’t add to or change any magisterial teachings; all it did was organize and present them.

[quote=centuri0n]OK: How do I know which of those documents are infallible?
[/quote]

You have to check if it meets the requirements for any of the three modes of infallibility - papal infallibility, conciliar infallibility, and the infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium.


#16

[quote=Catholic2003]I don’t have the exact Ratzinger quote in front of me right now; it went something like the magisterial weight of any teaching contained in the Catechism is exactly the same as it was before the Catechism was promulgated. The idea is that the Catechism didn’t add to or change any magisterial teachings; all it did was organize and present them.
[/quote]

Here is the quote from page 26 of an Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger and Christoph Schönborn:

The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess. The weight of the Catechism itself lies in the whole.


#17

[quote=centuri0n]Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church (you can find it at vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM ) an infallible document?
[/quote]

Actually, no document can be infallible. The Bible is inerrant; that is, it contains no errors (if accurately transcribed). The Catechism gives the correct interpretation of the Deposite of Faith from Scriputure and Sacred Tradition.

May the love of God the Father, the peace of His Son Jesus Christ, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.


#18

centuri0n – what’s the REAL question?


#19

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