According to the CC, does anything exist outside of God?

I know in most forms of Judaism, the answer is a definitive, “no.” Accordingly, they believe that we would cease to exist if in the direct presence of God.

LOVE! :heart:

I am not used to thinking about God as having an inside or an outside.
But, creation is not God, so it would be outside God. God is eternal, unchanging and simple. We are in time, becoming and complicated - ontologically outside.
I know that if I saw God, I would want to disappear in Him, to give myself totally to His joy, love and beauty. I might run to hide my sinfulness, so I need to put that off for a while.

Edit: “might run”? “am running” is a better way to state it; and, it isn’t a matter of putting things off - the mass, sacraments, prayer and reflection bring one ever closer to Him.

It depends on what you mean by “exist outside of God”

God is “I AM who AM”

His creatures, though made by Him and sustained in existance by Him, are not part of Him. This is the heresy of panthenism. In this sense all creations exist outside of God.

Let me put it another way: Is all the creation nullified within its source (God)? In other words, there exists nothing but God.

LOVE! :heart:

CCC:

I. The life of man - to know and love God

1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

Your statement seems nullified by the first few words of the Catechism.

I do not see where anything in that quote would address my question. Can you please be more specific. Thanks.

LOVE! :heart:

Man seeks God who calls him.

  • Hence, man =/= God
  • I want to go home when it feels bad to be outside of my home.

So your answer is, “yes.” I’m not too convinced, but thanks.
LOVE! :heart:

I’ll take a crack at this. Look at it this way, does the existence of your computer nullify the programs within it out of existence?
God : His creations :: computer : programs

: → is to, :: → as
Of course, my simple-minded analogy goes against the, I think, Thomist assertion that God is simple matter undivided* within Himself, but then my analogy is necessarily a limited one, so we can’t expect to push it all the way to perfect understanding.

*Programs in your computer, although they seem not to change anything, actually change some electrical charges in memories and magnetic domains in magnetic hard-drives, so your computer does get changed a little bit by the fact that it’s had programs uploaded into it.

I’m interested in what the CC teaches, or maybe something that a saint may have written.

LOVE! :heart:

+JMJ+

Acts 17:28 - “For in Him we live, and move, and are, for we are also His offspring.”

The First Vatican Council teaches that God is “distinct from the world” (Sect. 3, Ch. 1, para. 2). This means that all creation (including man) is not God or part of God.

I’m not sure this is getting at it either. I always believed that our world is distinct from God in one sense (i.e., one spiritual the other physical), But I still adhere to the teachings of the Jewish Tanya, that nothing exists except God.

LOVE! :heart:

If nothing exists outside of God (or ‘except God’), what need would there be for redemption of Man???

The Angels are in union with God, but remain separate entities. Lucifer revolted, and left God, and Heaven. Man sinned, and was removed/evicted from the Garden of Eden, separated from God. In fact, ‘sin’, is, by definition, turning away from God.

How can we sin, be ‘fallen’, and be separated from God, yet ‘not exist outside of God’? Either we would not exist, or there would be no need for ‘redemption’.

Or, perhaps a third alternative, sin would already abide in God–which would mean that Christ would not need to be sinless, nor His mother, Immaculately conceived–what point would there be for either, if sin already abides in God? Again, it begs the question, what need would there be for redemption, and Christ the Redeemer?

To maintain your position, is to maintain an express contradiction–that sin itself, may exist, within God.

Your position appears to be patently inconsistent with Catholicism.

So all the kids that are dying and all the people who go on there merry way - all that happens in god?
In which case it wouldn’t matter, because it’s all illusion, the reality being god, himself.
Love then is what? narcissism? a good feeling?
Respectfully, I think you have to work on this. Maybe go back to the Catechism, or New Testament itself.

I’m not familiar with the Tanya, but what you describe sounds like the belief of many Eastern religions that the sensible world is unreal, that individuality is an illusion, and that man’s final end is to cease to exist–or if you prefer, to be absorbed into the One. Your treatment of matter also sounds similar to the beliefs of the Gnostics, Manichees, and Cathars whom the Catholic Church sent missionaries to convert.

The Church teaches that the end for which man was created is communion with God. The Beatific Vision is a “face to face” experience of God. This implies two real beings interacting with one another. We will also experience one another in Heaven as a community of love. This means we do not lose our individuality and are not “aborbed” into the divinity. For documentation, see the Catechism, para. 1045.

Yes, I’m not familiar with ‘the Tanya’ either. Perhaps he meant “the Tanakh”?

I was just talking about this recently with a friend. I think what you are asking is whether or not God exists in all things, not that He is all things. I tend to think that for anything to be made and exist, the Holy Spirit must indwell it and the Father keeps it in existence. So in a sense, God exists within everything created, but is not part of the creation itself. I think that is what spirit is, God’s presence in creation. Some things have minimal spirit, like matter that does not live, others have the most, like humans and angels. Others are somewhat in between, like dogs and monkeys.

But to call God a combination of humans, dogs, plants, rocks, etc would not be correct. We worship God who is Spirit.

I’d be careful here. God is everywhere by his essence, presence, and power: “God is in all things by His power, inasmuch as all things are subject to His power; He is by His presence in all things, as all things are bare and open to His eyes; He is in all things by His essence, inasmuch as He is present to all as the cause of their being.” (S.T. I, 8, 3)

God is therefore imminent and sustains everything in existence, but a soul is neither God nor his presence, nor his Spirit, but rather a part of Creation. And the word “indwelling” is usually reserved for God’s presence in the souls of the regenerate.

By definition God is someone that is almighty. But this gets into philosophical discussions and the terms can get confusing. The Church teaches God is omnipotent, omnipresent, all knowing, etc. If God is all power, then there is nowhere His power does not exist. He is creator, but He does not have to create something from Himself as if He is giving up a part of Himself to create it. He gives things a nature yet retains His own in a supernatural state which is above all others. If it is not God’s will it does not exist. What God creates He calls good. What is not good is a lack of charity or other aspect of God. Therefore, God does not create evil. That would be impossible for someone all good. God does not have to be “in” something for it to exist. It just has to be His will which then makes it part of His plan or providence.

Hope this helps.

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