Accused of Worshiping Mary and the Saints

I have been arguing with someone on youtube and he has been attacking the Church. He claims that the Catholic persecuted people who had their own bibles and that the CC tried to stop the bible from being translated. Also he claims Mary is a sinner and needed to be saved. Also he say that praying to saints is a form of necromancy.

I was wondering how I could rebuke these claims. I know the basics so my faith in the tradition so the church haven’t suffered but I need to be able to make a counter arguement so this person will at least rethink his position. Any help would be appreciated. :smiley:

Both his statements are false. It’s up to him to prove his claims. Having said that, what the Church did was forbid ownership of faulty Bible translations, which was her right since the Bible is the Church’s book. There were many good translations of the Bible into various vernacular languages before Martin Luther was born. The problem was that Bibles had to be hand written, which meant they cost a lot of money. It wasn’t until the printing press was invented that Bibles, and indeed other works, could be made available to the masses. On top of that most people were illiterate, so even if they owned a Bible, they couldn’t read it.

Also he claims Mary is a sinner and needed to be saved.

She wasn’t and isn’t a sinner, but she was saved by Christ’s redemption. In her case God saved her before she could sin–at her conception, because she was to be the Theotokos (in Greek), the “God-bearer” or Mother of God, as we say it. The Angel Gabriel pronounced her “full of grace” at the Annunciation, in the sense that she had always been full of grace and still was.

Also he say that praying to saints is a form of necromancy.

Again, he is simply wrong. Jesus himself refuted the idea that the dead are dead:

Mt. 22:32b “He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

Mk. 12:27 “He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

Also, ask him if Jesus was practicing necromancy when he talked to Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. I doubt he’ll say that he was. :wink:

I was wondering how I could rebuke these claims. I know the basics so my faith in the tradition so the church haven’t suffered but I need to be able to make a counter arguement so this person will at least rethink his position. Any help would be appreciated. :smiley:

I hope this gets you started, at least. Don’t be surprised if these answers make no dent, though. He probably is so invested in his biases and misinformation that he will not budge. So, pray for him for only the Holy Spirit can convince him of the truth. :slight_smile:

I just realized how many spelling mistakes I had in my post sorry about that

Praying to saints
catholic.com/magazine/articles/friends-in-high-places

Mary
catholic.com/magazine/articles/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin

His claim about the persecution is totally false! Ask him to prove this.

Hope these links helped! God Bless! :thumbsup:

Thank you Della and Vincent. I will pray for this man and hopefully he will stop being so hostile toward the Church. Maybe he will come back to the Church. He was Catholic before. I realized I made an error when I said Mary didn’t need to be saved. She does indeed need to be saved. She was as you said saved before conception.

What’s his authority for citing the Bible as scripture to begin with?

The Catholic Church determined the canon of scripture in ~ 400 A.D (i.e. the Bible)… If he rejects the Catholic Church’s authority - why does he refer to their book? Why does he reject their teachings, which was the basis for determining the canon of scripture- which works were consistent/compatible with the teachings of the Church?

The teachings of the Church were not founded on the Bible, the Bible was collated based on those writings being consistent with its teachings. Its not a textbook or catechism. The apostles taught both orally and through writing, the early christian church didn’t have a Bible. St. Paul urged in 2 Thessalonians " Stand firm, then, brothers, and keep the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

I accept the Bible because I accept the authority of the Catholic Church as the Church Christ founded, that He assured would have His protection, and that the Holy Spirit would guide to all truth. If I reject the authority of the Church, I have no reason to accept the Bible as scripture.

Why does he accept the Catholic book? If he only accepts the version Martin Luther modified (removal of the deutero-canonical books, changes in translation), does he believe Luther was infallible? If not, why accept the modifications, how does he know Luther didn’t make a mistake? Why not remove the epistle James which Luther thought should be removed because it conflicted with Luther’s theory of salvation by faith alone? Or, why not add books considered by the early Catholic Church but rejected? (Gospel of Peter, Apocalypse of Peter etc.)

So, when he tries to assert claims-

  • Why cite the Bible as a reference? Couldn’t the early Church and Luther be wrong about what it contains, since they’re fallible men in his opinion?
  • Why should you accept his declarations as infallible?
  • Aren’t his assertions, since he’s a fallible man also, then basically him promulgating traditions of man vice God?

A good book to read is Karl Keatings- Catholicism and Fundamentalism. Another Patrick Madrid’s 'Suprised by Truth"

A good link on Scripture and Tradition:

catholic.com/tracts/scripture-and-tradition

YouTube comments are a wasteland of cluelessness. I wouldn’t stoop to their level.

He is a seven day Adventist. He believes the CC destroyed all the translations of the bible so their would only be Latin and so the CC can control the bible. He ignored historical facts that the church made the bible which I have stated many times

So, what is his authority for what he is promulgating?

If asking the saints to pray for us is necromancy, than asking our neighbors here on earth is necromancy as well. Praying for the dead and to the saints has been a practice since the earliest days of the Church.

I do not know where he claims his authority from. If I where to ask he would probably say he has authority from God because he is a child of God. Praying to the saints as we both know is not necromancy, however this man believes it is an I have told him before that this is what the Church Father and Apostle practiced and he ignores it. His main issue that the Catholics persecuted Christians because they where had bibles that where not in Latin. This over course is not true but I need to come up with facts to show him his error. I know the burden of proof is on him.

Well, I recommend you check out the apologetics forums. I’m sure the subject has come up countless times.

Some folks aren’t going to listen though, no matter what facts or information you present. Their ego is too wrapped up in their position.

Very well explained Della:) God Bless!

Also Keep in mind that this “Mary issue” are very common among protestants.
The reason why I refer to it as an issue is becouse they have learned from childhood that Mary is no holier than you and me. Believe me when I say that this Heresy mambo jambo is very hard to overcome. Ive struggled a lot With it just a few months ago, but are fortunate enough to overcome it. False doctrine like this is something that are affecting all of ones emotions aswell as mindset and many People are unfortunately to inprented With this hersey to ever find their way home to the Catholic Church.

God Bless you for trying to save these lost sheeps.
If you win over just one person, you have saved his eternity. Think of that:)

God Bless!

A committed SDA who has rejected Catholicism isn’t going to listen to a Catholic about anything, but you could refer him to this excellent work: Where We Got the Bible, Our Debt to the Catholic Church by Henry G. Graham He may not even bother to look at it, but at least you will have given him a resource.

You don’t have to take on all comers and try to answer all objections. Not because Catholics can’t but because sometimes it’s just not worth the time and trouble if the other person does the equivalent of putting his fingers in his ears and intoning “La, la, la, la, la.” Jesus said that if people reject the Gospel to move on to those who will listen. You have to decide if this fellow is just wasting your time and effort. :slight_smile:

You have no idea how right you are

Thank you that last line is something I never thought of

You know Della you are absolutely right. If I don’t try though then who will. I will try my best and do what God wants of me. Thank you again :slight_smile:

I recently wondered if an adequate response to such accusations is to turn it around and inquire what the Protestant considers as worshiping. Because if they worship God like we venerate Mary, then I think their problem is not with the veneration of Mary, but with not properly worshiping God.

SDA believe in “soul sleep” so it will be hard to convince him that praying to/for the dead is not necromancy. For us the doctrine is clear. The saints are alive in heaven and our prayers reach their ears, so to speak, because they are attentive to us on Earth. The necromancy charge is so outlandish, though. Why would Christians practice it for thousands of years? It is suddenly not OK? This is just primitivism in its most pernicious form. This guy reads too much Matt Slick.

Disciple,
I think what you are experiencing is “training” for what we all we will be asked to do. They are so many lost souls out there that are searching for something to believe in, but we live in time where “blind faith” is a lost virtue. I have a brother in law who is what I describe as a “telephone book” Christian. He finds a church…loves it for a while…disagrees with the minister…goes back to the phone book to find the next great church. His way to describe it is that the church gives him the “meat but doesn’t make the gravy”. I’ve told him that God has already presented the meat and it’s up to each of us to make the gravy. Today people want fast food…(sorry about the food analogy). Catholicism takes work…a nun told me once that we might have to go back to the catacombs to worship at some point. Sister has long since gone but I think of her words often…we have to remain strong. God bless…I am sure He is proud.

He didn’t out right say I was practicing necromancy but he quote verse from Deuteronomy about conjuring spirits and talking to the dead. I guess it would be more accurate to say praying to the saints is occult/ which craft in his mind

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