Acts 19:1-6 vs Acts 10:44-48 Holy Spirit received AFTER or BEFORE baptism?


#1

**Acts 19:1-6 we read about those who received the Holy Spirit AFTER being baptized… but in Acts 10:44-48 we read about others who received the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized. **

Acts 19 RSVCE
19 While Apol′los was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. ***There he found some disciples (of Christ)***.

2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed (on Christ)***?” And they said, “No,***(they had not yet received the Holy Spirit.)

We have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” (meaning repenting form sin and turning to Jesus, because they were disciples of Jesus)

4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (finished, their baptism was done and over,…and then…AFTERWARDS.)

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. (notice what occurred when the H. Spirit came upon these people, they spoke with languages they had never learned and prophesied as well)

7 There were about twelve of them in all.

Acts 10:44-48

Gentiles Receive the Holy Spirit

***44 While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. ***

45 And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,

47 “***Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” ***

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.


#2

Interesting. Do you conclude something from this?


#3

God is bound to uphold the promises He made for the sacraments, but He is not bound to ONLY act through His sacraments. He promises that He will bestow His grace through the sacraments, but He can bestow that grace outside the sacraments if He chooses.

In the case of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit before Baptism and Confirmation, He was giving a sign that the sacraments and the New Covenant were open to all. This is NOT the normal manner the Holy Spirit is bestowed. And even with the Holy Spirit on them, the Pope declares the need to have them baptized too.

One other note, in verse 19:6, the gifts of the Holy Spirit come down after Paul administers Confirmation on them.


#4

First of all I’d like to apologize for capitalizing all of the word, BEFORE and AFTER. It looks
rude, which I wasn’t trying to be, I was just trying to make those two words stand out from the text, and in the title it wouldn’t accept the bold or underline function. I was not trying to be rude.

(sometimes the look of the underline and bold function to make things stand out so that someone scimming can catch the drift quickly, can look like it is meant in a rude way, too, but I did not have that attitude when typing it.

Conclusions you asked, in a post above?

Just that as churches we have made some rules about how and when God does things…

What I mean is that the Holy Spirit is doing things here, outside of the exact way we thought He always did things.


#5

I agree with zz912 and think the action we see in Acts 10 is a special work of God to show the Apostles (particularly Peter) that the Gentiles were going to be part of the New Covenant. We see that in the very next segment Peter commanded that they be baptized.

We know from even the Old Testament that the Holy Spirit could be given to perform works. In Numbers 11:27, God gives a portion of the Spirit to 70 elders and they begin prophesying in the camp. This seems to be what was happening in Acts 10-- the Holy Spirit was received and they began speaking in tongues and extolling God. These times when God gives the gifts of the Holy Spirit (like in the Old Testament and Acts 10) are not the same as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit received at baptism. They seem to be a special pouring forth of power for a particular purpose. Since the initiation of the Church the standard process is baptism first, then confirmation and the gifts of the Spirit. But God doesn’t always color inside the lines, so to speak. That is why we say in the Catechism that God Himself is not bound by the Sacraments. (CCC 1257) At the same time, we adhere to the Sacraments because we believe they are sacred promises of God and He will confer grace whenever the Sacraments are validly given.

For some Scriptural references: Catholics believe that baptism is where we are born from above by water and Spirit (John 3:3-5), the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5) where we are clothed in Christ (Gal 3:27) and adopted into the family of God. We believe that Confirmation is that action where we see someone baptized but then there is laying on of hands to bring forth the gifts of the Spirit (cf Acts 8:14-17, Acts 19:5-6,) and where we see references to being sealed (Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30)


#6

Yes there are important conclusions here. More than a few, about different topics.

One is that people can receive the new spiritual birth outside of water baptism, just from listening to the preaching of God’s word, which is what these people were doing. They heard the Word of God, believed on Jesus Christ and received the Holy Spirit into themselves, and they were saved by this and justified.

This means that going into the water and coming out of the water, by itself, does not have
the saving power, even though there is one scripture that says, ‘baptism saves you’.

I now think this scripture about baptism saving, is not meant literally.

Paul wrote about baptism, that we go down into the water with Jesus into his death, and we die too, then as we come up out of the water, we come back to life with Jesus as he resurrects. This was Paul’s way of explaining how we are placed “into Christ”, and receive His benefits.

From these scriptures we can also ascertain that speaking in languages they hadn’t learned as a sign of the Holy Spirit being given them was not a one time occurrence so that people heard preaching in all their own languages, at Jerusalem at Pentecost.

Here we have examples of no others present that could hear anything in their own language, yet the Holy Spirit being given was evidenced by those receiving speaking in languages they had not learned.

There are other things that can be seen from these scriptures too.


#7

Another point even more important, is that these scriptures back up something I have
been thinking for awhile now, that churches may have many in them, who have not yet had their new spiritual birth, as yet, even though they may have been water baptized. and may be even a good attender, read the churches material and even give mental assent to it.

They may be living the Christian life, or trying to and struggling, without even yet being Christian, by the bible definition of having the spiritual new birth.


#8

With regard to the Scripture “baptism now saves you”, I’d like to chime in a couple of thoughts. First of all, as with all Scriptures, we want to interpret in context and I think a mistake many people might make is isolating a passage and not considering other passages. So we can’t ignore the Scriptures about faith when we read this Scripture about Baptism. It is clear that Peter did not intend to say "baptism alone saves’ but he very much intended people to know that baptism is extremely important. It is actually the beginning of the merits of Jesus Christ’s Sacrifice being applied to us. Baptism brings about the Holy Spirit (according to the Catholic Church; I realize that some protestants believe baptism is symbolic). No one’s going to heaven without the grace (which was merited by Jesus) that is conferred upon us by the Holy Spirit. So, baptism is absolutely essential to salvation, and that’s why it is emphasized so much in the Scriptures.

And yet, as you indicated, salvation isn’t only about baptism. It’s also about faith. People can be baptized as infants and grow into adulthood and have no faith. Will their childhood baptism alone save them? No. Baptism is the beginning, not the end. This is why the Catholic Church has both baptism for infant and confirmation for a young adult. And yet those two incredibly important Sacraments are not enough to “save” by themselves-- the believer has to be a willing participant in their salvation. This is the spiritual rebirth I believe you are talking about. We still must have faith, we still must live in accordance with God’s way in repenting and living out our faith in mercy and love. But the grace of God is what empowers us to walk in His way so that is why Sacramental living is so important to me.

I have to sadly agree with you that there are people in the pews that come to Church every Sunday and are not living the Christian, Spirit filled life. They have no relationship with the Lord. It brings to mind what the Lord told the Church in Laodicea “I know all about you: how you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were one or the other, but since you are neither, but only lukewarm, I will spit you out of my mouth.” Rev 3:15-16:eek: I’m particularly thinking of those Catholics who come to Church on Christmas and Easter. This is the reason behind the mission of the New Evangelization.


#9

So someone who attends church faithfully, tries to live by God’s commands, been baptized, and gives assent to Christ’s teachings. And THIS person you believe might not be a Christian.

This is just bizarre. Please explain some more.


#10

Why does Peter and Paul warn so many times about losing your salvation?

In the Old Covenant, how was someone brought into the Covenant? Was it by mental assent? Prayer? Or some other action?

Please don’t take this personally, but I’m not wagering my eternal soul on your personal opinion. Is there someone/something the Bible points us to so that we can know with certainty about questions of the faith?

So the act of baptism changes us fundamentally? Being placed in Christ would be bestowing grace upon us.

When Paul teaches that not everyone receives the same gifts of the Holy Spirit, or even any gifts at all, was he mistaken? Were the ones who didn’t receive the gifts still Christian?

Such as?


#11

Being Saved. You said:

One is that people can receive the new spiritual birth outside of water baptism, just from listening to the preaching of God’s word, which is what these people were doing. They heard the Word of God, believed on Jesus Christ and received the Holy Spirit into themselves, and they were saved by this and justified.

This means that going into the water and coming out of the water, by itself, does not have
the saving power, even though there is one scripture that says, ‘baptism saves you’.

I now think this scripture about baptism saving, is not meant literally.

We ordinarily receive the Holy Spirit when we are Baptized.

Acts 10:44-48 is a reception of the Holy Spirit via extra-ordinary means.

I’ll try to explain later.

Notice also Acts 19 is a NON-recpetion of the Holy Spirit “when you believed” (notice this does not fit with the typical Protestant BELIEVE ALONE and you will receive the Holy Spirit and be saved motif either). They get Baptized then they get hands laid upon them and THEN they receive the Holy Spirit.

This is confusing to some of our Protestant friends and family.

Why?

Because they receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE Baptism (in the case of Acts 10 and the household of Cornelius) and the Bible says in Acts 19, those people didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until AFTER hands were laid upon them.

A possible objection could be raised here by non-Catholics such as . . .

Potential Objection: "Yet you Catholics teach when you are Baptized, you receive the Holy Spirit!"

Have I adequately encapsulated your issue that you are taking with the Church?

If I am understanding your objection, I will deal with it. If I am not adequately understanding your issue, then I will (with your help) need to probe deeper and will again try to re-state your objection to be sure I know it upon learning more details.

But I want to make sure of your objection(s) before addressing them.

God bless.

Cathoholic


#12

Dear Cathoholic: (hee)

I was pointing out from scripture that some people in the NT got saved, justified, without
water and waterbaptism, as the time they were saved.

They listened to preaching of the gospel, believed on Jesus, and received the Holy
Spirit, becoming saved.

What I was trying to say was that the water itself of water baptism, wasn’t what saved them, it was God, the Holy Spirit responding to them believing.

I do not believe they received a gift of tongues, listed with the gifts of the Holy Spirit
in the Bible, I believe they received an evidence of the ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit’…,
that was salvation Holy Spirit entrance, and then step two, baptism in the HOly Spirit,
all at one time.

What I was saying was that water by itself is not what does the action, work, or miracle.


#13

Dear Cathoholic: (hee)

I was pointing out from scripture that some people in the NT got saved, justified, without
water and waterbaptism, at the time they were saved.

They listened to preaching of the gospel, believed on Jesus, and received the Holy
Spirit, becoming saved.

What I was trying to say was that the water itself of water baptism, wasn’t what saved them, it was God, the Holy Spirit responding to them believing. In water itself, is not where the power to create the new creation lies. (the water isn’t what does it)

I do not believe they received a gift of tongues, listed with the gifts of the Holy Spirit
in the Bible, I believe they received an evidence of the ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit’…,
that was 1) salvation Holy Spirit entrance, and then step two, baptism in the HOly Spirit,(same as Upper Room Pentecost)
all at one time.

Then afterwards, they had a water baptism, after the salvation and justification occurred.

This is the order of events that we see occur in the church I am in currently.

  1. listening to the Word of God spoken about God’s good news, gospel.
  2. believe on it and believe on Jesus Christ, salvation, and justification,.
  3. followed by water baptism (we have a tradition of dunking underwater, if possible
    if not, we use a large pitcher and bowl and ‘pour’ over the head of the person, into the
    bowl. (with, in the name of the F.S. and HS.

Same as this example above.

We also believe in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, a separate event from the Holy Spirit’s initial entrance into the individual. We believe that ‘speaking in languages you have not previously learned’ is the evidence that this baptism has occurred.

What I was saying was that it would seem from this instance that salvation justification occurred without water at all. Then after salvation occurred and even further than salvation justification,…the second Holy Spirit action, same as the one poured out at Pentecost, occurred, all before the person went into the water.

Why Holy Spirit baptism tongues and gift of tongues are different, first reason
is that baptism tongues is the evidence that HS baptism has occurred. This was spoken of as the evidence that the HS baptism had occurred. It was spoken of every time a HS baptism occurred. (this is not water baptism, separate and different) It happened to the initial 120 in the upper room, and it also happened every time following, when someone was said to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, speaking in languages they had not learned
occurred.

In another place in the bible is listed all of the Gifts ot the HOly spirit listed including
speaking in tongues, gift of Healing, Gift of working wonders,.having supernaturally acquired knowledge, wisdom,…etc.
These talk about the gifts, and one is tongues, however, this type of tongues is distinctly different, BECAUSE
it says that God gives these gifts as He wills,.
however,
about the tongues of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit
This baptism always has the tongues and it is given to EVERYONE and for EVERYONE
and is diff. and has diff. functions and even rules applied to it, than the tongues that is the gift of tongues. People often mix the two together, but they are separate.

So the baptism in the HOLy SPIRIT is for all who are in Christ and endeavouring faithfulness, and with this also is given
tongues as an evidence, and from this evidence we know by practicing it, that
these tongues do not disappear after initial baptism in the H. SP. They stay with a person and is a way of ‘praying in the Holy Spirit’ without understanding, but sometimes you can have the understanding of what you are praying.

Scripture where list of Holy Spirit supernatural gifts are:

Nine Spiritual Gifts Defined

A. Purpose of Gifts

  1. Confirm prophet speaking from God: Heb 2:3,4

  2. Edify church: 1 Cor 12:7

B. Function Of Each Of The Nine Gifts: 1 Cor 12:8-10

  1. Wisdom: Bible says little, perhaps: 1 Cor 2:4-7; 2 Pe 3:15

  2. Knowledge: 1 Cor 13:8 Bible says little about this gift

  3. Faith: 1 Cor 13:2; Mt 17:19 21 Bible says little about this gift

  4. Prophecy:

a) Jn 14:26; 16:13

b) Eph 3:5 apostles and prophets

c) Acts 21:9 four daughters of Philip (Apostle Prophet John, Open Vision Revelation)

  1. Distinguishing of Spirits: Bible says little, perhaps: Acts 16:16-18; 1 Jn 4:1

  2. Healings: Acts 3 lame man: Jas 5:14-15

  3. Miracles: Acts 20:9-12; Acts 28:3-6

  4. Tongues:

a) unlearned foreign languages: Acts 2:718

b) sign to unbelievers: cor 14:22; Acts 2:6-8

c) 1 Cor 12:27-28

(1) no more than 3 may speak in any one assembly

(2) each must speak in turn, not a the same time

(3) if no interpreter present no one may speak in tongues in assembly aloud in public address.

  1. Interpretation of tongues: 1 Cor 14:13,28

C. DISTRIBUTION:

  1. Holy Spirit always given through the laying on of Apostles ?(not sure, because today this same thing occurs, from hands that are not apostles hands: Acts 8:14-19

  2. Holy spirit decide who would get which gift: I Cor 12:7-11


#14

When the Spirit fell on the people when they received the Good News of Jesus Christ and they praised God and spoke in tongues, they received Charismatic grace, edifying grace, grace that is given to build the church. When one is baptized with water and in the Name of the Trinity, one receives sanctifying grace, and is made a child of God. the Charismatic graces do not sanctify but are religious experiences that give witness to the truth, and draw people into the Christian community which is consummated with the Sacrament of Baptism
Many Old Testament figures received this Charismatic grace, but they all fell into sin,because Jesus had not arrived as yet, the Holy Spirit was not given until Jesus ascended into Heaven, the Holy Spirit gives sanctifying grace, and edifying grace but it is sanctifying grace that makes us like Christ and gets us into Heaven. We can go to Hell using Charismatic , or edifying grace if we do not have the sanctifying grace of the Virtue of love


#15

This is a fairly standard modern evangelical non-denomination way of looking at salvation.
It has resulted in a logical progression of deactivating sanctifying graces into purely symbolic acts which eventually become questioned as to their relevance and then tossed out because they interfere with what they get replaced with. They get replaced with the … sermons.

Eventually all that becomes required for salvation is a one off “accept Jesus” prayer call, which then has its outworking by the Holy Spirit ensuring it’s impossible for the believer to transgress, in action or word, and to develop a complete and accurate knowledge of evangelical truth, (assurance).

And so you are reading too much into the passage in Acts. There is no evidence that those who received the Holy Spirit did anything other than hear. It does not say they believed, it does not say they were justified, and it most certainly does not say they were born again. This is reading into the text to suit your knowledge of evangelical truth.

The Holy Spirit can come upon anyone for the sole purpose of witnessing to those around them. In this case it was a witness to Peter and the circumcised converts with him.

Then and only then did they begin to go through the process of salvation by washing of regeneration and renewal of Holy Spirit, only then did they go through the washed sanctified justified in the name of Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God process. The Biblical born again way.


#16

BeingSaved. You stated:

What I was trying to say was that the water itself of water baptism, wasn’t what saved them, it was God, the Holy Spirit responding to them believing.

Yet 1st Peter 3:21 says . . .

1st Peter 3:21a Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you . . .

Of course in a sense you are correct. It is Jesus WHO saves them. But in another sense, HOW does Jesus give us the Holy Spirit? The answer is Baptism.

The Council of Trent talks of these differing senses and perhaps I will quote them soon (I may end up having a round of treatment for a malignancy later this week and may or may not be up to a timely post. I’ll have to wait and see).

You also talk about the spiritual gifts, distribution, etc. which is good.

But the issue is . . . HOW do you get on the entrance ramp to receive these gifts?

The answer is Baptism. At least by ordinary means. I’ll try to add more soon.

God bless.

Cathoholic


#17

I am so sorry about the health issues you are facing. I am facing some health issues too,…I am believing by faith in God’s words about healing to be saved from this, and I
want the same for you.

I am not praying, (asking God) for this any more because I found scripture that says when I ask, to believe I have been given the answer to the request, so this is where I am at in the process. God already said ‘yes’,…to my request, just like Jesus always answered yes, to those who asked for healing in the new testament.
This shows us God’s will to heal us, He wants to, He says ‘yes’.

Us receiving this and maintaining faith to receive it is where I am at. This was also a problem for Jesus because in His home town people said they saw him as ‘Joseph’s’ son,
so did not believe on Him for healing and the results were different. The bible says that Jesus could do no mighty work amoung them because of their unbelief.

I am there, rooting out my unbelief, and doubts, and focusing on the faith side, of
Jesus already saying yes to my healing and me making a faith connection to God’s will for healing for me.

The Bible is God speaking to me. The Bible is God speaking to you.

youtube.com/watch?v=HPfsucXO3OA


#18

St Paul is explicit that not everyone receives the same gifts, and that many do not receive any gifts like this. These people were still Christian, and Paul treats them as such.

Your understanding seems contradictory to St. Paul’s teaching.


#19

You’re turning God into a giant vending machine in the sky. You are putting God to the test, and putting your will above His.

He MAY wish you to be saved of this ailment, or He MAY NOT. In fact, at some point, almost all of us will succumb to some ailment. Only those who live to see the Second Coming will not die.

As to only praying once and then stopping, that’s unbiblical. Jesus gave us the parable of the woman and the judge to encourage us to continually pray. Jesus Himself prayed three times to the Father to let the 4th Cup pass from Him in the Garden. How are you better than Jesus? And what was the Father’s answer to Jesus’ prayer that the cup pass?


#20

There is nothing extraordinary about this example. It is just the “baptism of desire.” St. Thomas explains that although the sacrament of baptism is the cause of sanctifying grace, we receive sanctifying grace before the time in which we receive the sacrament of baptism, but a fuller infusion of grace at the time when we receive the sacrament.

As stated above (1, ad 2; 68, 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Psalm 22:2, “He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment,” a gloss says: “He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism.”
III, 69, 4, ad 2)ST

The question to ask is whether those gentiles mentioned in Acts 10 would have been saved if they later spurned the sacrament of baptism. The answer is that they would not, which is why St. Paul says, Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy… who hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


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