Acts Forbidden in Marital Union


#1

Can someone point me to an authoritative teaching - preferrably recent - that discusses what acts are allowed or forbidden within marital relations? Thank you in advance.


#2

I've wondered the same thing.

Is Sodomy between Man/Woman a "Sin Within Marriage," within Marriage, i wonder?:confused:


#3

I know condoms are banned, even within a marriage. Other than that, I have no idea.


#4

From my understanding you'd want anything that discusses the procreative and unitiive aspects of marriage.

Basically, any act that is not open to the transmission of life is a grave wrong and contray to natural law and Church teaching. So, sodomy, by its nature, is not open to the transmission of life, nor is oral sex.

With that said, the man must try to "finish" inside the woman. So technically, sodomy or oral sex could be used, but the logistics of it could work against the couple and the act may not be open to the tranmission of life.

Someone is bound to come along shortly with the exact links as to where to go about this.


#5

There's no definitive list, if that's what you seek. Pretty much anything that acts to separate the unitive and procreative aspects of sexual union is against Catholic teaching on sex. And it's not just about the "mechanics", it's also about intent.


#6

its been pointed out that you need to have both procreative and unitive aspects during the act. so actions such as oral and sodomy are allowed as foreplay.
This article answers specific questions..hope it helps:

thecatholicletter.com/birth-control-abortion-article-subjects-40/100-the-catholic-birth-control-a-sex-faq

:)


#7

I think Gregory Popcak's book "Holy Sex" does the best part in clarifying this issue. The only part I've had difficulty with is the man always ejaculating inside of the woman. I think that words it well for most people, but with us I think it led me to becoming overscruplous simply because I have difficulty with intercourse, and its very difficult for us to achieve it because of the mental hang ups I have. I understand that in principal that the man and the woman should not be actively refusing to engage in the act as a form of avoiding the procreative aspect of sex. However, I find that the more morally obligated I feel to have intercourse (where my motivation is to morally legimitimize our expression of love rather than it just naturally ending up there), the harder it becomes to respond to my husband at all. The only way I can naturally get to having intercourse is if I'm not feeling any pressure to do it. So for me, my husband and I's approach is that our behavior is moral so long as we're open to having intercourse and aren't consciously trying to oppose the procreative meaning of sexuality. If we approached it any other way, we'd lose our ability to engage in the act at all and I wouldn't get over past trauma because I'd only be compounding trauma onto trauma. I don't think God would put us in a moral trap where I could overcome a problem but that I couldn't morally do what needed to be done to overcome it.

Other than that, you have to consider whether the act is demeaning to the dignity of the person and what that person's comfort level is.


#8

What about sex outside of the marriage though?

I feel really embarrassed asking this :blush:, so hopefully it won't be so offensive within this thread..

What if, a married couple asked you to enter into their marital bed? Would you just tell them no, or would you tell them no and go on to tell them how bad you think it is for their marriage? What scripture could you use, or what could you say, like...why is it wrong for people to have sex with others outside of marriage if say, both are okay with it?


#9

1 Cor.6:9-10 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites

nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.


#10

[quote="Charlotte408, post:8, topic:221478"]
What about sex outside of the marriage though?

I feel really embarrassed asking this :blush:, so hopefully it won't be so offensive within this thread..

What if, a married couple asked you to enter into their marital bed? Would you just tell them no, or would you tell them no and go on to tell them how bad you think it is for their marriage? What scripture could you use, or what could you say, like...why is it wrong for people to have sex with others outside of marriage if say, both are okay with it?

[/quote]

If a couple is into "swinging," I doubt if any Scripture is going to give them pause! :eek:

People who do that insist that it is good for their marriage so arguing with them about the morality of it or even the practical concerns such as disease, are probably not going to make a difference. Just say "No" and get away from them! Far away!


#11

Thank you very much for your post! I have struggled with this issue for a while now, and haven’t been able to gather the courage to ask about it. It’s not that I dislike intercourse but that our previous pattern of sexual contact doesn’t always finish that way. If I suddenly start requiring my husband to change our whole manner of having sex, I’m not sure what the results would be. Especially since we are no longer fertile (well he is but I am not), so even requiring intercourse would not bring life into our marital embrace. And like you, we are not consciously trying to prevent conception nor is my husband doing anything that would cause me harm in any way. I can’t really talk to him about it, or I haven’t had the courage to do so, because religion is a sore spot for us and sex is one of the areas we have problems in. My guilt about my sexual history gets in the way of my enjoyment…thinking about how non-holy you’ve treated sex is a real turn-off!

I struggle with “what could sex have been like, if I’d lived differently?” And the knowledge that I can’t go back and re-do what’s happened in the past. When I am really feeling ashamed, I think about going and joining a convent, but that’s probably not the best motivation for a vocation! I regret my sexual history deeply and I’d love to make sure no young person has to go through what I have…not at the time but years later when they recognize the true meaning that sex could have had, and which they will really never know. It’s not even the sex itself, it’s that the relationship has been built without that element of reverence and respect for God’s gift of sexuality, and that could only be regained if the other person were also aware of its absence to that point. I mean, if my husband suddenly recognized that he’d been lied to about what sex is and what it means, and he realized that coming to the marital bed as a virgin is what God intended for us, we could start from the same place, and perhaps create something new. But he is so not at that point. Right now, it’s my struggle alone.

Writing this does show me that I need to be a little more frank with him about what I have been going through, though. How is he to know that it’s shame for my past and regret for the way our relationship began that has caused me to withdraw from him sexually? I’m not keeping it secret but I probably haven’t been as clear as I could be.

Thanks again for your forthright post. It helped me a lot.


#12

[quote="TheRealJuliane, post:10, topic:221478"]
If a couple is into "swinging," I doubt if any Scripture is going to give them pause! :eek:

People who do that insist that it is good for their marriage so arguing with them about the morality of it or even the practical concerns such as disease, are probably not going to make a difference. Just say "No" and get away from them! Far away!

[/quote]

Thank you, and thank you newbie. Its really an embarrassing situation for me. This married couple goes to my parish!

Well, I mean I don't know them, but I met them after mass about 2 weeks ago, so I assume they go there semi-regularly.

Or maybe they were using it as a hunting ground I have no idea. But they were nice and we chatted, our kids talked...the wife and I exchanged emails. Next thing I know the husband is writing me and propositioning. My response of course was no, and that I wouldn't want to disrespect his wife and his marriage...

But she is okay with it and now she's pursuing, its really freaking me out. I mean they have beautiful kids...I would hate to see any marriage ruined, and she is beautiful, I just don't understand why they don't completely cherish each other, why they would want to share. Its just bizarre to me. I just thought maybe before I cut them completely off I could leave her or him with a parting word that would maybe plant a seed..I almost feel wrong not saying anything. Like their just going to continue on this path and I didn't provide a witness.


#13

In response to the idea of avoiding sex to avoid conception....ummm...NFP anyone? The whole point of using NFP to abstain is that you won't be having sex. Should married couples just have NO sexual interaction during that period of abstinence??

Maybe I'm not understand...but that seems off to me. :blush:


#14

[quote="Charlotte408, post:12, topic:221478"]
Thank you, and thank you newbie. Its really an embarrassing situation for me. This married couple goes to my parish!

Well, I mean I don't know them, but I met them after mass about 2 weeks ago, so I assume they go there semi-regularly.

Or maybe they were using it as a hunting ground I have no idea. But they were nice and we chatted, our kids talked...the wife and I exchanged emails. Next thing I know the husband is writing me and propositioning. My response of course was no, and that I wouldn't want to disrespect his wife and his marriage...

But she is okay with it and now she's pursuing, its really freaking me out. I mean they have beautiful kids...I would hate to see any marriage ruined, and she is beautiful, I just don't understand why they don't completely cherish each other, why they would want to share. Its just bizarre to me. I just thought maybe before I cut them completely off I could leave her or him with a parting word that would maybe plant a seed..I almost feel wrong not saying anything. Like their just going to continue on this path and I didn't provide a witness.

[/quote]

WHOA!!! I am stunned and I am only reading the above, not experiencing it! I would not worry so much about quoting scripture. I would focus on being VERY firm and ending contact with them., Even a friendship with them would be uncomfortable and dangerous, on some end. I would certainly not let my children spend time at their home, if only for fear of what they may overhear. These folks are BOLD and clearly do not see their actions as offensive at all.
Good for you for handling it without flipping out. I don;t know what i would have done.

Taben


#15

[quote="Charlotte408, post:12, topic:221478"]
Thank you, and thank you newbie. Its really an embarrassing situation for me. This married couple goes to my parish!

Well, I mean I don't know them, but I met them after mass about 2 weeks ago, so I assume they go there semi-regularly.

Or maybe they were using it as a hunting ground I have no idea. But they were nice and we chatted, our kids talked...the wife and I exchanged emails. Next thing I know the husband is writing me and propositioning. My response of course was no, and that I wouldn't want to disrespect his wife and his marriage...

But she is okay with it and now she's pursuing, its really freaking me out. I mean they have beautiful kids...I would hate to see any marriage ruined, and she is beautiful, I just don't understand why they don't completely cherish each other, why they would want to share. Its just bizarre to me. I just thought maybe before I cut them completely off I could leave her or him with a parting word that would maybe plant a seed..I almost feel wrong not saying anything. Like their just going to continue on this path and I didn't provide a witness.

[/quote]

Like I said, these are not people who would be affected by Scripture. I would not be surprised at all if they were "hunting," but then again, Catholics can be so liberal that they can justify almost anything, so...:shrug:

Block the email and end the contact. They are predators and will keep the pressure up as long as they think you might give in. Perversion on display.

Edited to add that I would also check and see if this couple is in ministry in any way - if so, the church needs to be warned about them. You can do that anonymously but through someone you trust.


#16

[quote="Newbie2, post:9, topic:221478"]
1 Cor.6:9-10 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites

nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

[/quote]

:)Now if we could just get more tedious apologetic rants about those two...


#17

[quote="MrsScardinoz, post:13, topic:221478"]
In response to the idea of avoiding sex to avoid conception....ummm...NFP anyone? The whole point of using NFP to abstain is that you won't be having sex. Should married couples just have NO sexual interaction during that period of abstinence??

Maybe I'm not understand...but that seems off to me. :blush:

[/quote]

If you're going to be actively avoiding intercourse, than definitely you should not be substituting other acts for intercourse. That motivation is out of lust and would make the practice of NFP pretty much the same as using contraceptives - "How can I have sex without getting pregnant?"

That said, our understanding of sexuality can be broadened into simply an expressions of love. When I kiss him before he goes to work, that could be counted as sexual. Heck, our affection throughout the day, holding hands and what not all contribute to our positive feelings toward one another which culminate into the sexual embrace. What prepares you for sex isn't JUST the foreplay just before it, but all the ways you've made each other feel loved throughout the day, week or month, etc. In fact, just looking at sex in its natural setting, sometimes a couple can start with foreplay and it doesn't lead to anything. You're being affectionate in the morning, but time runs out and you need to go to work. A baby crying in the other room interrupts you, etc. Even those more intimate sexual acts are important to a marriage even when they don't lead to intercourse.

But, to actively start pursuing intense sexual gratification while trying to get around having intercourse because you don't want to get pregnant is morally disordered. Overall, you want to respect the fullness of our sexuality and don't want to turn it into an act where you're pursuing pleasure while actively rejecting and getting around the unitive and procreative purposes of sex. Think of it this way. Its ok to express love and to be intimate, but if you're refusing to have intercourse for the sake of NFP, than don't be trying to weasle your way around things. It is a period of sacrifice.


#18

[quote="Charlotte408, post:12, topic:221478"]
Thank you, and thank you newbie. Its really an embarrassing situation for me. This married couple goes to my parish!

Well, I mean I don't know them, but I met them after mass about 2 weeks ago, so I assume they go there semi-regularly.

Or maybe they were using it as a hunting ground I have no idea. But they were nice and we chatted, our kids talked...the wife and I exchanged emails. Next thing I know the husband is writing me and propositioning. My response of course was no, and that I wouldn't want to disrespect his wife and his marriage...

But she is okay with it and now she's pursuing, its really freaking me out. I mean they have beautiful kids...I would hate to see any marriage ruined, and she is beautiful, I just don't understand why they don't completely cherish each other, why they would want to share. Its just bizarre to me. I just thought maybe before I cut them completely off I could leave her or him with a parting word that would maybe plant a seed..I almost feel wrong not saying anything. Like their just going to continue on this path and I didn't provide a witness.

[/quote]

your first concern is the protection of your children. your motherly instincts will take care of the rest.


#19

[quote="Charlotte408, post:12, topic:221478"]
Thank you, and thank you newbie. Its really an embarrassing situation for me. This married couple goes to my parish!

Well, I mean I don't know them, but I met them after mass about 2 weeks ago, so I assume they go there semi-regularly.

Or maybe they were using it as a hunting ground I have no idea. But they were nice and we chatted, our kids talked...the wife and I exchanged emails. Next thing I know the husband is writing me and propositioning. My response of course was no, and that I wouldn't want to disrespect his wife and his marriage...

But she is okay with it and now she's pursuing, its really freaking me out. I mean they have beautiful kids...I would hate to see any marriage ruined, and she is beautiful, I just don't understand why they don't completely cherish each other, why they would want to share. Its just bizarre to me. I just thought maybe before I cut them completely off I could leave her or him with a parting word that would maybe plant a seed..I almost feel wrong not saying anything. Like their just going to continue on this path and I didn't provide a witness.

[/quote]

6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

8 The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived

:eek::slapfight:don't be tempted into a snake pit. :takethat::takeoff::blessyou:


#20

If you're going to be actively avoiding intercourse, than definitely you should not be substituting other acts for intercourse. That motivation is out of lust and would make the practice of NFP pretty much the same as using contraceptives - "How can I have sex without getting pregnant?"

That said, our understanding of sexuality can be broadened into simply an expressions of love. When I kiss him before he goes to work, that could be counted as sexual. Heck, our affection throughout the day, holding hands and what not all contribute to our positive feelings toward one another which culminate into the sexual embrace. What prepares you for sex isn't JUST the foreplay just before it, but all the ways you've made each other feel loved throughout the day, week or month, etc. In fact, just looking at sex in its natural setting, sometimes a couple can start with foreplay and it doesn't lead to anything. You're being affectionate in the morning, but time runs out and you need to go to work. A baby crying in the other room interrupts you, etc. Even those more intimate sexual acts are important to a marriage even when they don't lead to intercourse.

But, to actively start pursuing intense sexual gratification while trying to get around having intercourse because you don't want to get pregnant is morally disordered. Overall, you want to respect the fullness of our sexuality and don't want to turn it into an act where you're pursuing pleasure while actively rejecting and getting around the unitive and procreative purposes of sex. Think of it this way. Its ok to express love and to be intimate, but if you're refusing to have intercourse for the sake of NFP, than don't be trying to weasle your way around things. It is a period of sacrifice.

very well said!!!!! very true!!!! very much what people don't want to hear or believe in their selfish pursuit of pleasure w/o consequences or growth.


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