My understanding is that God created Adam and Eve from scratch with free will and He could foresee that they would sin. If that premise is true, why would God not have scrapped that design and tried another and another until, with His ability to foresee, He came up with human creations that would not sin (still exercising their free will)?
That His glory might be made more manifest in our weakness than in our strength?
I’m not sure if that particular concept would be totally congruous or compatible with the fact that free will - in order to be free will, must be absolute. We even see in the angelic nature , those who never sinned (or would not sin) and those who did - even though in their case the choice (of to serve God or not) was one definitive irrevocable choice with eternal consequences. Shall we also ask God to change the Angelic um, (your word - not mine) design ?
God is humble. In His plan to redeem mankind He decided it would only be necessary to create one human being free from all stain of sin and who would not sin . . . the Blessed Virgin Mary. Though awkwardly worded, the idea you mention of “another design” is, in one sense, not totally foreign, since Our Blessed Mother - the Virgin Mary, is referred to as the new Eve ; but even she had to be saved.
In your concept of “scrapping that design”, how would you propose that God deal with the salvation of Adam and Eve ? IOW how would the debt be paid ? We need to remember that death entered the world through the devil’s envy as well - not only through our first parents’ sin.
God has indeed already scrapped that design in redeeming us: But rather than destroying or discarding us as an old model or prototype, we are now raised higher than we ever were before the Fall - thanks to our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ. Each one of us, in Christ, now receives a lofty calling.
Because that would violate free will, and God is a respecter of his creation, even to the point of death on a cross.
God is eternally patient. He could press the restart button for us at any time, but he loves us.
God’s design was good; existence is worthwhile even in this world. And human sin was not inevitable, i.e. Adam and Eve did not have to sin. But, knowing that they would sin, God nonetheless deemed it worthwhile to create them, knowing also that ultimately He could bring an even greater good out of the evil that resulted from man’s fall in Eden. He’s doing that as we speak.
The salvation of Adam and Eve would not be necessary if the first humans did not sin so I don’t understand the point of the question.
It would not violate free will if he only created first humans with free will, who with his foreknowledge, would NOT sin. He only creates the first free will humans who he knows will not sin, EVEN EXCERCISING THEIR FREE WILL.
Well, you can debate theoreticals all day, in real time that’s not how it is. We have free will, and we choose to sin on occasion.
One difficulty with these scenarios is our view of what God knows and when he knows it. God is not subject to time, and so cause and effect are not part of the equation. Your question is one of cause and effect.
God creates human beings.
Human beings sin.
Therefore, the occasion of sin should cause God to act differently than he does/did/could/should have (all three are nonsensical terms in reference to God)
Try to think about this from the lens of eternity, or God outside of time rather than subject to it.
There is nothing nonsensical here. Are you disputing that God could have chosen to create the first humans with free will who would not sin? He did so with Mary. Surely if he foresaw that Mary would sin he would have created a different mother of God.
Our sins resulted in God effecting an even greater good than has we never sinned at all. From His perspective, there is no need to prevent man from sinning.
Maybe it’s the way you worded it. “Scrapping a design” to me means it already existed. But since you add “with his ability to foresee”, perhaps you mean to dump the idea of Adam and Eve altogether before even creating them? I think it’s a little bit superficial (in that we don’t delve deep enough). Scripture (Jeremiah 1:5) says:
“Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.”
God breathed Himself into each one of us, and the human soul He gives us is worth Him becoming man and dying in order to save it. For me personally, I would find it a little presumptuous to think I had it all figured out how God actually creates.
Are you aware that in this part below you contradict yourself ?
If God’s “ability to foresee” were that flawed, He wouldn’t be God. God’s omniscience is complete. God doesn’t have to learn by trial and error ("tried another and another until. . . ")
You aren’t really admitting His foresight ; more like you are suggesting that God needs a really thick powerful pair of glasses because He keeps botching things up . . .How long do we saunter down that path before the suggestion pops up that God had better get Himself to Confession ?
The thing about this subject, it tends to eventually lead to “Why did God create satan? Why did he allow sin? Whats the point?” We’ll never have an answer quite frankly. Yes, he did it to show and share His love, but with these what i like to call “origin” questions… we just have to have absolute Faith. Its quite a mystery i will say. The Kingdom will be quite a place of answers though i assure you There are concepts and colors and idea not even conceivable to the human brain even if it ran at its full function all the time
“So I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; hence, she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.”
Why do so many people post Bible verses that have nothing to do with the discussion?
God is not so insecure that he must reset everything! He knows and accepts the fact that we’re free to reject him. He wishes to see us freely choose to love him and desire to be with him. 1/3 of the Angels rebelled and got walloped! Chances are that 1/3 of humanity will follow suit. Nevertheless, in my opinion I believe it was likely our first parents would have fallen. We’re a very curious and inquisitive race. Chances are we would all have acted similarly to our parents.
Not just chance brother but unavoidable. We will the same thing as Adam did to this day. The original sin is most sublime
Because His actions aren’t dependent on the actions of His creatures.
The problem in your logic is that you assume that God has foreknowledge and then He creates. The foreknowledge and act of creation however are eternal. This means that it is wrong to put God in temporal framework as you do.
you know… sometimes I really do not know why I am here today…
I have heard many say, ‘it might have been better had I never been born.’
And I really have to wonder if that would be true… would I have been better off had I never been born?
It is good to live as far as you grow.