Adam and Lilith then Eve?

I love talking with my Baptist coworkers and friends, they allways seem to give great new stories about the Bible when I thought I had heard them all. Tonight I learned from one that Eve was the second woman God created for Adam, Lilith was the first. Lilith later turned out bad and became the serpant. God created Eve to replace Lilith. Lilith later tempted Eve to sin with the forbidden fruit. Adam had children with both women and one line was bad while the other was good.

Supposedly the Catholics try to hide all this stuff too through history and editing of the Bible?

Does anyone have more information on this topic?

I believe that Lilith as Adam’s first wife is a Jewish belief, albeit not one that is religiously binding. It amounts to about the same as Joseph being an old man when he married Mary. I can’t remember all the details of the Lilith story, however, and the serpent thing is new to me. From what I recall she was indeed an unfit wife for Adam for a number of reasons.

I believe it may have been a way for certain Jews to reconcile the two seperate accounts of the Creation of the world in Genesis, since the creation of Eve isn’t mentioned in the first account. It’s more of a “reading between the lines” belief than anything. Perhaps SSV can chime in on the matter, if she’s even familiar with the Lilith account. Not all Jews I’ve talked to are.

It’s definately not something that was “covered up” by the Church, however, as it’s never been an authoritative rendering of the Genesis account but rather a pious addendum and possible explaination of perceived inconsistancies. For all I know, it came about after the big split between the Church and normative Judaism.

Addendum: After some brief research it appears that the tale of Lilith as Adam’s first wife comes from Kabbalism, with passages from the Zohar. She is a demon, who I believe is actually mentioned in the Bible, who was later (during Medieval times, it seems) portrayed as Adam’s first wife in Kabbalistic circles. She’s more a matter of Jewish folklore, it seems, similar to how a Biblical spin on the “fair folk” was created in the Celtic Catholic cultures. Sadly my knowledge on Jewish folklore and the Zohar are not what they could be. Here’s just one link with some extensive information:

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=421&letter=L#1194I

If this is Jewish folklore, why would the Baptists be preaching it or talking about it or giving it credibility, etc…?

Because for the most part, there is no credibility in most of their teachings to start with…so why is it hard to believe that this would be any different…before you flame me, I was raised a Baptist…so I speak from experience. It is Jewish folklore and if I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, Lilith is a spin-off of a Sumero-Babylonian Goddess Belit-ili, or Belili…any ways, there are different legends, but for the most part, they all seem to agree that Lilith did not accept an inferior role to Adam and demanded equality to him…when not given it, she cursed Adam and left him. She became a suductress and supposedly had something like 100 demonic babies a day, which I believe God destroyed as a punishment to her for her actions…there are all different types of folklore out there about her, such as she slept with the Devil to produce evil children…also she seduces men and produces evil offspring and she flies around kidnapping or strangling newborns.

All of it is a huge crock…and it is a perfect example of why I left the Baptist Church.

[quote=Malachi4U]If this is Jewish folklore, why would the Baptists be preaching it or talking about it or giving it credibility, etc…?
[/quote]

Lilith is not a Jewish belief per se. The story of Lilith surfaced in the Medieval period and came from the Kabbalah.

It is a story that is promoted vigorously by New Age people and those who worship goddesses.

Maggie

[quote=Malachi4U]If this is Jewish folklore, why would the Baptists be preaching it or talking about it or giving it credibility, etc…?
[/quote]

So they can claim that the Catholics have been hiding it all this time? :wink:

[quote=Malachi4U]If this is Jewish folklore, why would the Baptists be preaching it or talking about it or giving it credibility, etc…?
[/quote]

it is another example of those traditions of men. You know, they accuse the Catholic Church of having traditions of men… and then they trot out Lilith as the first wife of Adam !! :eek:

Maggie

Hi all!

The Jewish Encyclopedia piece that Ghosty gave a link to is pretty good.

I’ll add the following:

Lilith

Lilith is a character who appears in passing in the Talmud and in rabbinical folklore. She is a figure of evil, a female demon who seduces men and threatens babies and women in childbirth. She is described as having long hair and wings (Erub. 100b; Nid. 24b). It is said that she seizes men who sleep in a house alone, like a succubus (Shab. 151b). She is also mentioned in midrashim and kabbalistic works, in which she is considered to be the mother of demons. Her name probably comes from the Hebrew word for night (laila). She is similar to and probably based on a pagan demon named Lulu or Lilu that appears in Gilgamesh and other Sumerian and Babylonian folklore.

In recent years, some women have tried to reinvent Lilith, turning her into a role model for women who do not accept male domination or a rival goddess to the traditions that they think are too male-biased. For example, a number of female musical artists participated a concert tour called “Lilith Fair” a few years ago, and the name “Lilith” was clearly chosen to represent female empowerment.

This revisionist view of Lilith is based primarily on a medieval work called the Alphabet of Ben Sira, the significance of which has been widely misinterpreted and overrated. The story of Lilith in Ben Sira claims that Lilith was the first wife of Adam. Lilith insisted on being on top when they were having sexual intercourse, claiming that she was Adam’s equal. For this reason, Adam rejected the uppity Lilith, and Lilith was replaced with the more submissive second spouse, Eve. The complete story is presented here.

Many modern commentators have pounced on this story, claiming that it comes from the Talmud and reflects the traditional rabbinical understanding of the roles of men and women. Feminists reject the negative characterization of Lilith’s actions in this story, and make Lilith out to be a hero who was demonized by male-chauvinist rabbis who did not want women to have any sexual power.

However, it is important to note that the Alphabet of Ben Sira is not a traditional rabbinical Jewish source. It is not part of the Talmud, nor is it considered to be a midrash. It is not entirely certain what Ben Sira is, but it appears to be a satire or parody, possibly even an antisemitic one. It tells many stories about biblical characters envisioned in non-traditional, often unflattering ways, often with slapstick humor at the expense of traditional heroes. See this critique of the use of Ben Sira to turn Lilith into a feminist hero.

To treat The Alphabet of Ben Sira as a reflection of traditional Jewish thought is like treating Cervantes’ Don Quixote as an accurate depiction of chivalry, or Mel Brooks’ Blazing Saddles as a documentary of the American West.

Link: jewfaq.org/women.htm#Lilith

e-catholic, you posted:

So they can claim that the Catholics have been hiding it all this time?

Shhhh!!! Don’t talk about the secret Catholic-orthodox Jewish conspiracy to hide this secret knowledge!!! :smiley:

Be well!

ssv :wave:

I am a catholic convert from southern baptists. The way I have always understood the creation story is similar to the way many of the stories in the Bible are treated… First overview then focus in… The first chapter talks about the beginning of creation, the overview. These things all happened here and here… The second chapter begins with (verses 4 through 5) Such is the story of the heavens and the earth at their creation. At the time when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens while as yet there was no field shrub on the earth and no grass of the field had sprouted, for the Lord God had sent no rain upon the earth and there was no man to till the soil…

The focus in…

Obviously, if you read the wording that is in bold here, we’re talking about prior to the time when God created man on the sixth day, He then goes into detail about the creation of His most important creation: man. He explains it in detail.

As this was originally a spoken history, and you say this out loud, you will hear the difference in tone and information… and that is without hearing it in Hebrew.

If you look at it in this manner, then the creation story makes sense, and gender issues liek Lillith are less likely to sway you…

www.fiveaspects.org

A

[quote=MaggieOH]it is another example of those traditions of men. You know, they accuse the Catholic Church of having traditions of men… and then they trot out Lilith as the first wife of Adam !! :eek:

Maggie
[/quote]

Just ask them where in the bible it says that Lilith was Adam’s first wife. That should buy you some silence and confused looks.

[quote=Scott_Lafrance]Just ask them where in the bible it says that Lilith was Adam’s first wife. That should buy you some silence and confused looks.
[/quote]

Give them time and they’ll just rewrite the Bible agian - their version of it anyway (whatever that version is these days?).

When did Scripture stop Luther from adding his own words to it, changing words, deleting words or deleting entire verses and books of Sacred Scripture? It didn’t stop protestant editores of the AKJV of 1611? It didn’t stop protestant editors and publishers in the mid 1800’s from deleting books or changing things around? I have numerous protestant bibles and one thing is for sure, they add, delete and change at will. Look at the Joseph Smith or Jehovah Witness or NKJV or NIV versions. Find a king or publisher that wants to change things and they will.

Being a Baptist myself I can tell you that this is not a teaching that I have ever heard. I think whoever told you this was seriously confused. The only place I have ever heard anything about this idea was on the Discovery channel. This is definately not a Baptist doctrine or teaching.

Hi all!

Sires6, you posted:

The way I have always understood the creation story is similar to the way many of the stories in the Bible are treated… First overview then focus in…

This is also our (orthodox Jewish) view. There is only one creation account.

Be well!

ssv :wave:

[quote=Malachi4U]I love talking with my Baptist coworkers and friends, they allways seem to give great new stories about the Bible when I thought I had heard them all. Tonight I learned from one that Eve was the second woman God created for Adam, Lilith was the first. Lilith later turned out bad and became the serpant. God created Eve to replace Lilith. Lilith later tempted Eve to sin with the forbidden fruit. Adam had children with both women and one line was bad while the other was good.

Supposedly the Catholics try to hide all this stuff too through history and editing of the Bible?

Does anyone have more information on this topic?
[/quote]

Heh, some versions have not only Lilith and Eve but a third wife created between the two. She, to the best of my knowledge, never had a name.

[quote=HilaryJ]Being a Baptist myself I can tell you that this is not a teaching that I have ever heard. I think whoever told you this was seriously confused. The only place I have ever heard anything about this idea was on the Discovery channel. This is definately not a Baptist doctrine or teaching.
[/quote]

Gods peace be with you Hilary,

Just what is Baptist teaching? I was only in and around the Baptist churches for 27 years, I never stoped hearing them teach conflicting opinions or inventing new ones. As I understand it (from my EX-baptist days) all Baptist congregations are independent. When Baptists get together they can only really agree on 5 things in the entire Scripture. Thats not bad, 5 whole things they can agree on in 66 books of Scripture and all 400 years of their existance. Ok, there is a sixth thing most may agree on too. Every time a Baptist church gets a new preacher they get a new opinion on Scripture. Their beliefs change as the preacher(s) change.

Baptist opinions are the subject of another thread though. Start one and teach us what ALL Baptists believe in common. It’ll be a very short thread though.

In response I would say that in part you are correct I cannot vouch for all Baptist denominations. I do not believe that you can generally go by what someone calls themself. I am a member of the American Baptist Association. Here I can tell you is a network of churchs with like faith and doctrine. Here I include our doctrinal statement which contains 21 statements with scripture references. I believe that you will find the key to my response about Adam and Eve in numbers 2 and 4. I do appreciate your sarcasm though.

  1. We believe that love one for another as Jesus loves the believer manifests our discipleship, proves our love for God and symbolizes our authority as New Testament churches. Love is therefore the great commandment of the LORD Jesus Christ upon which all others are dependent (Matt. 22:35-40; John 13:34, 35; John 15:12; 1 John 4:7-21; 1 John 5:1-3; Rev. 2:4, 5).

  2. We believe in the infallible, verbal inspiration of the whole Bible and that the Bible is the all-sufficient rule of faith and practice (Psalm 119:160; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17).

  3. We believe in the personal triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, equal in divine perfection (Matt. 28:19).

  4. We believe in the Genesis account of Creation (Gen. 1; 2).

  5. We believe that Satan is a fallen angel, the archenemy of God and man, the unholy god of this world, and that his destiny is the eternal lake of fire (Isa. 14:12-15; Ezek. 28:11-19; Matt. 25:41; 2 Cor. 4:4; Eph. 6:10-17; Rev. 20:10).

  6. We believe in the virgin birth and sinless humanity of Jesus Christ (Matt. 1:18-20; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22).

  7. We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ (John 10:30; John 1:1, 14; 2 Cor. 5:19).

  8. We believe the Holy Spirit is the divine Administrator for Jesus Christ in His churches (Luke 24:49; John 14:16, 17; Acts 1:4, 5, 8; Acts 2:1-4).

  9. We believe that miraculous spiritual manifestation gifts were done away when the Bible was completed. Faith, Hope and Love are the vital abiding Spiritual Gifts (1 Cor. chapters 12-14).

  10. We believe that Man was created in the image of God and lived in innocency until he fell by voluntary transgression from his sinless state, the result being that all mankind are sinners (Gen. 1:26; Gen. 3:6-24; Rom. 5:12, 19).

  11. We believe that the suffering and death of Jesus Christ was substitutionary for all mankind and is efficacious only to those who believe (Isa. 53:6; Heb. 2:9; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2).

  12. We believe in the bodily resurrection and ascension of Christ and the bodily resurrection of His saints (Matt. 28:1-7; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Cor. 15:42-58; 1 Thess. 4:13-18).

Please see next posting for continued comment.

Continuation of post about American Baptist Association Doctrine.

  1. We believe in the premillennial, personal, bodily return of Christ as the crowning event of the Gentile age. This event will include the resurrection of the righteous to eternal heaven, and the Millennium will be followed by the resurrection of the unrighteous unto eternal punishment in the lake of fire and that the righteous shall enter into the heaven age (John 14:1-6; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 2 Thess. 2:8; Rev. 19; Rev. 20:4-6; Rev. 20:11-15; Rev. 21:8).

  2. We believe that the depraved sinner is saved wholly by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and the requisites to regeneration are repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 13:3-5; John 3:16-18; Acts 20:21; Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:8, 9), and that the Holy Spirit convicts sinners, regenerates, seals, secures, and indwells every believer (John 3:6; John 16:8, 9; Rom. 8:9-11; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; Eph. 4:30; Titus 3:5).

  3. We believe that all who trust Jesus Christ for salvation are eternally secure in Him and shall not perish (John 3:36; John 5:24; John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:35-39; Heb. 10:39; 1 Peter 1:5).

  4. We believe that God deals with believers as His children, that He chastises the disobedient, and that He rewards the obedient (Matt. 16:27; Matt. 25:14-23; John 1:12; Heb. 12:5-11; 2 John 8; Rev. 22:12).

  5. We believe that Jesus Christ established His church during His ministry on earth and that it is always a local, visible assembly of scripturally baptized believers in covenant relationship to carry out the Commission of the Lord Jesus Christ, and each church is an independent, self-governing body, and no other ecclesiastical body may exercise authority over it. We believe that Jesus Christ gave the Great Commission to the New Testament churches only, and that He promised the perpetuity of His churches (Matt. 4:18-22; Matt. 16:18; Matt. 28:19, 20; Mark 1:14-20; John 1:35-51; Eph. 3:21).

  6. We believe that there are two pictorial ordinances in the Lord’s churches: Baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Scriptural baptism is the immersion of penitent believers in water, administered by the authority of a New Testament church in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Lord’s Supper is a memorial ordinance, restricted to the members of the church observing the ordinance (Matt. 28:19, 20; Acts 8:12, 38; Rom. 6:4; 1 Cor. 5:11-13; 1 Cor. 11:1, 2, 17-20, 26).

  7. We believe that there are two divinely appointed offices in a church, pastors and deacons, to be filled by men whose qualifications are set forth in Titus and 1 Timothy.

  8. We believe that all associations, fellowships, and committees are, and properly should be, servants of, and under control of the churches (Matt. 20:25-28).

  9. We believe in freedom of worship without interference from the government and affirm our belief in civil obedience, unless the laws and regulations of civil government run contrary to the Holy Scriptures (Rom. 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-15).

Lilith was mentioned in one of C.S. Lewis’s Narnia books. Jadis was descended from Lilith.

Due to the Baptist’s belief in sola scriptura I find it hard to believe that these women heard this myth in church. It is probably something that they ran across in their own private readings. I attended a Baptist church for three years and never heard anything like this. I have read about Lillith on the web and come across the story in some books-but never from a church pulpit.

[quote=Tlaloc]Heh, some versions have not only Lilith and Eve but a third wife created between the two. She, to the best of my knowledge, never had a name.
[/quote]

Sounds sort of Mormon?

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