Adventist Debate


#1

I have a friend, and we like to debate some of out belief's.

*Firstly came the debate of the Sabbath, they state that humans does not have the power to change the day.

*Then the Old Testaments laws, I said we are not bound to them, because it was fulfilled by Jesus himself (I need Biblical proof or something similar)

*He said to me, if we don't follow the old testaments laws why do we follow the 10 commandments. I said we are bound to it by Matthew 19: 16-17

If anyone can help me answer this and get some prove against this I will truly appreciate this :)


#2

I would suggest that you read the Sermon on the Mount, as it answers these questions quite well. It can be found in the Gospel of Matthew in chapters 5-7. The quote that you mention about Jesus fulfilling the law and not destroying it comes from Matthew 5:17, and I'm sure there are other examples as well.

There is a necessary distinction to make here as well. We are no longer bound by the parts of the Mosaic Law that govern what we eat, washing hands before meals, keeping company with Gentiles, being circumcised as a sign of our covenant with God, etc, etc. Try reading Acts 10 where Peter receives a vision from God where God tells him to not call anything that God has made "unclean", and we can therefore eat that which the Jews were forbidden to eat. For an example of us being free from circumcision of the flesh, check out Acts 15, specifically in the part about the Council of Jerusalem where Peter pronounces that Gentiles need not be circumcised. As far as what day we worship God on primarily, I'm not personally aware of any great explicit examples from the New Testament where the believers worship on Sunday, but there is an example from Revelation 1:10 where the Lord's day is mentioned, which has always been understood to be Sunday. There are a couple other examples that are a bit better in Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, and Colossians 2:16-17. Granted, this doesn't appear to be an explicit example of New Testament Christians worshipping on Sunday, but when we look to the example of the early Church, we see that this practice relatively quickly became unanimous. For a better look at this issue, check out this article from catholic.com: Sabbath or Sunday?


#3

[quote="ChrisB103, post:2, topic:269356"]
I would suggest that you read the Sermon on the Mount, as it answers these questions quite well. It can be found in the Gospel of Matthew in chapters 5-7. The quote that you mention about Jesus fulfilling the law and not destroying it comes from Matthew 5:17, and I'm sure there are other examples as well.

There is a necessary distinction to make here as well. We are no longer bound by the parts of the Mosaic Law that govern what we eat, washing hands before meals, keeping company with Gentiles, being circumcised as a sign of our covenant with God, etc, etc. Try reading Acts 10 where Peter receives a vision from God where God tells him to not call anything that God has made "unclean", and we can therefore eat that which the Jews were forbidden to eat. For an example of us being free from circumcision of the flesh, check out Acts 15, specifically in the part about the Council of Jerusalem where Peter pronounces that Gentiles need not be circumcised. As far as what day we worship God on primarily, I'm not personally aware of any great explicit examples from the New Testament where the believers worship on Sunday, but there is an example from Revelation 1:10 where the Lord's day is mentioned, which has always been understood to be Sunday. There are a couple other examples that are a bit better in Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, and Colossians 2:16-17. Granted, this doesn't appear to be an explicit example of New Testament Christians worshipping on Sunday, but when we look to the example of the early Church, we see that this practice relatively quickly became unanimous. For a better look at this issue, check out this article from catholic.com: Sabbath or Sunday?

[/quote]

Thank you for this, but now he said, that no where Jesus has mentioned the 10 commandments together in one, so its wrong, then he showed me to James 2:10


#4

Scripture never requires non-Jews to keep the Sabbath.


#5

The passage of the Exodus 20:8-11 concerning the Sabbath has been misquoted by the Adventists many times according to them it is "Seventh Day of the week" but it is not, the passage indicated a "Seventh Day after Six Working Days" and so if you start working on Monday you end up on Saturday and your Sabbath is Sunday" Therefore Catholics have not violated the law of the Ten Commandments as they think.

Moreover in the Original Greek Version of the Bible in the Gospel of Mathew 28:1-2 it mentions two Sabbaths, "Opse de Sabbaton" that is the Sabbath of Jews which is ending then the proceeding words says "Mian Sabbaton" that the prime Sabbath is Dawning. The usual translation of the Bible is, First Day (Mian Sabbaton) that is the day of the Resurrection known as Sunday but in the Original the text it is called Sabbath. Therefore the day of the resurrection or Sunday is a Sabbath that is in the Original Greek New Testament.

God Bless


#6

James 2:10 seems to counter his own point. :confused:

We do not keep the Mosaic Law. Your friend seems to be the one insisting on it.

I'd quote Matthew 22:34-40, where Christ mentions the commandments.

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’b 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’c 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


#7

[quote="TradionalWay, post:3, topic:269356"]
Thank you for this, but now he said, that no where Jesus has mentioned the 10 commandments together in one, so its wrong, then he showed me to James 2:10

[/quote]

Your friend seems to suffer from a bad case of ignoring the context of verses. When he uses verses, go back and read the whole chapter (and maybe the chapters before and after) to pick up some context. It seems like this should help, especially with his "point" from James 2:10.

Ultimately, I think the most important point to discuss with any Protestant is authority. If you can, study up on the authority of the Church and then take the discussion that way, because we ultimately worship on Sunday because the Church, in her wisdom, says to.


#8

[quote="GEddie, post:4, topic:269356"]
Scripture never requires non-Jews to keep the Sabbath.

[/quote]

Agreed. There's also something to be said about conforming with your community's theological updates. Most Christians believe Sabbath observance is not longer obligatory and most Jews think, at the least, the Sabbath has some importance. So if you profess to be a Christian, why would you believe the Sabbath is obligatory for Christians, if most if your community? And if you believe the Sabbath is obligatory, why would you stay a Christian? Why not just be a Jew?


#9

[quote="TradionalWay, post:1, topic:269356"]
I have a friend, and we like to debate some of out belief's.

*Firstly came the debate of the Sabbath, they state that humans does not have the power to change the day.

*Then the Old Testaments laws, I said we are not bound to them, because it was fulfilled by Jesus himself (I need Biblical proof or something similar)

*He said to me, if we don't follow the old testaments laws why do we follow the 10 commandments. I said we are bound to it by Matthew 19: 16-17

If anyone can help me answer this and get some prove against this I will truly appreciate this :)

[/quote]

In regards to the Sabbath debate, you could ask them if humans have the Authority (power) to omit scripture. By who's Authority (power) did the Adventist remove books of the bible.

Who has Authority? God the Father! Who was ALL authority given to Jesus!

Matthew 28:18 Then** Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.**

Who did Christ confer His (Modus Operandi) Authority with, but those that were to Operate through Him, with Him, In Him, in Unity with the Holy Spirit? The Apostles!

John 20:21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

How was this "Modus Operandi" the Apostles were partaking in conferred upon others to be partakers in the "Divine Modus Operandi?" By the laying on of hands as St. Paul had received!

Acts 9:15 But** the Lord said to Ananias, “Go!** This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”17 Then Ananias went **to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus*, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
*

Did St.Paul had a binding authority to teach, preach, correct and instruct in Love?

1Thessalonians 4:1 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2** For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.**

Did St. Paul had passed that on to others in an Apostolic succession?

2Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, in keeping with the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, my dear son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
2Timothy 1:6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
1 Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.

Did those who came after the Apostles have authority to confer a participation in the (Modus Operandi) of Chirist Jesus?

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of the elect of God and the acknowledging of the truth, which is according to godliness:
Titus 1:4 To Titus my beloved son, according to the common faith, grace and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Savior.
5 For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldest** ordain priests** in every city, as I also appointed thee:

*Then the Old Testaments laws, I said we are not bound to them, because it was fulfilled by Jesus himself (I need Biblical proof or something similar)

You may want to discuss how we are saved by grace not by works in regards to strict merit. I heard a priest once put it this way

"If you have a child who is told not to horse play in the house, because they may break something, like a TV for instance, and then they horseplay in the house and break the TV. they get in trouble. A parent may say that they have to forfeit their allowance for a month and no sleepovers at their friends house either. The allowance will not cover the cost of the TV, but you have to institute some sort of corrective punishment for breaking the family rules! You watch how the child responds to their punishment and you may say I recognize that you are truly sorry for your actions and have learned from your wrong doings. You with held 20 dollars of the child's allowance, but the TV cost two thousand dollars. They could never repay you being that the money is a GRACE that comes from you in the first place. If they were not a family member under the GRACE of a parent, but a burglar who trespassed and broke your TV, the LAW would demand restitution for the crime committed. We do our chores, trying to make mom and dad happy, and thats good enough for the parent! A parent recognizes the heart of the child! We are children of God through the participation in the divine sonship of Jesus Christ. We do our best to do good as God has told us what he expects of His Children, and we do it out of love for our Father. It is our heart, not the doing of ABCD in order to receive a payment due. We are judged by our works not through the eyes of the Law but through the eyes of mercy and grace from our loving Father"


#10

[quote="TradionalWay, post:1, topic:269356"]
I have a friend, and we like to debate some of out belief's.

*Firstly came the debate of the Sabbath, they state that humans does not have the power to change the day.

*Then the Old Testaments laws, I said we are not bound to them, because it was fulfilled by Jesus himself (I need Biblical proof or something similar)

*He said to me, if we don't follow the old testaments laws why do we follow the 10 commandments. I said we are bound to it by Matthew 19: 16-17

If anyone can help me answer this and get some prove against this I will truly appreciate this :)

[/quote]

*He said to me, if we don't follow the old testaments laws why do we follow the 10 commandments. I said we are bound to it by Matthew 19: 16-17

Out of love. We show our love by our obedience as Sons and Daughters paticipating in the divine Sonship of Jesus Christ, which is a Grace that we are given by God. We respond to grace by trying to please our Loving Father. Now Catholic teaching does state that one can fall from Grace through Mortal sin, but the depth of God's Love, and mercy is unknown. That is why the Church has never said this guy or that guy is burning in hell, because we don't know the depth of God's mercy! I guess my goal as a Catholic is to move ever closer to God through a participation in the divine sonship of Jesus Christ, whether it be sacramental union with Him, or suffering in Him!

From the conversation you have had with the Adventist, it sounds like they have a works based righteousness in a strict merit sense of the meaning? I don't know much about their doctrine of Justification.

A book I would recommend on Justification that may be benificial to helping you explain the Catholic view of the familial justification God has for us is "Not by faith Alone" by Robert Sungennis. It explains very well the Catholic View of Justification to the layperson and scholar alike.


#11

I don't believe you're going to the win the one regarding the Sabbath. I have a similar ongoing friendly debate with someone. However, I can't wait to see what the responses are here!

Regarding the Old Testament, I understand what you're saying, but my guess is he will begin to point out the use and help from the book of Proverbs- many of which remain useful today. Along with a few other things... Sorry to be a downer. :blush:

I was even asked why we thought it was okay to have a Christmas tree as the Bible states we shouldn't bring a tree in our home. I thought that was ludicrous and definitely not in te Bible... It is.... So, I may add a few questions here of my own.
However, tomorrow, with a fresher mind, I may be abe to offer some helpful scriptures and points. Good luck!


#12

[quote="TradionalWay, post:3, topic:269356"]
Thank you for this, but now he said, that no where Jesus has mentioned the 10 commandments together in one, so its wrong, then he showed me to James 2:10

[/quote]

I think the big confusion here is how are we saved by grace not by works, yet justified by our works? It seems like a contradiction, but it is not.

God does not owe payment for our work done! That would be STRICT MERIT.

That is what Jesus, Paul and James are getting at. Nobody whether it be Jew or Gentile can demand payment for work done by STRICT MERIT. If anybody could fulfill the whole of the law it is by the grace of God working in them! One cant say to God "pay me, I fulfilled every bit of what you demanded", when God would have given them the grace to do it in the first place! There is NO strict merit in Catholic Theology!

Yet we are told we will be judged by our works? Our works performed are only considered good by God looking through the eyes of Mercy. Only He knows our hearts! We can work congruently with the Spirit of God that is working in us, enabling us to perform a work that God has decreed good by His Word: IE helping the poor, the widow, the orphan and any other work performed God has deemed good by His word. Therefore the work is Graced, being that it was the Spirit of God working in us to compel us to do a good work. This compelling will not go against our free will, so we are doing this by grace, through faith, working through love in the hope of things expected (ETERNAL LIFE) ! This Reward is only in relation to the gratuitous grace received and the promise of God to reward us out of Love and mercy. We can do these works with the joyful expectation of reward, only because God has bound himself to His Word. God is not bound to anything other than Himself and His Truthful nature, we have no reason to believe He would lie. God would not lie or tell us to do something (a good work) in His word and tell us it pleases Him, only to recant later! God is not bound by US to pay us a reward for work due, but we can hold fast, that we will receive a reward for good works, by following the grace that has been infused into our hearts, because God is Truthful and has told us he will reward us for works he has decreed to be good in His word.

I cant recommend this book highly enough "Not by Faith Alone" by Robert Sungenis :thumbsup::thumbsup:
It really will lays the Catholic View of justification beautifully and simply!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condign_merit


#13

IMHO the SDAs try to meld Christianity together with Judaism. Not only when it comes to the saturday sabbath and the 10 commandments.

They keep kosher as well at least to the extent of differentiating between "clean and unclean" foods.

They tend to focus on literal future predicting prophecy with particular focus on the Apocalypse and Daniel.

They even have their own "prophetess" Ellen G White whose writtings are considered as equally inspired as the 66 book bible.

No-one is as Anti-Catholic as as SDA. They routinely use the terms "Whore of Babylon and the Beast when referring to us as Catholics.

Beware!:bigyikes:


#14

Interesting thread. I grew up around Seventh-day Adventists and later married into an SDA family.

I do wish other denominations would put a bit more focus on health. I strongly believe God intends for us to care for our bodies. I learned a lot from Adventists.

Their theology, though, I've never gotten on board with. There is too much going against Mrs. White and her writings.

SDAs are very anti-Catholic. :(


#15

As others have mentioned, Christians in the New Covenant have been divorced from the ceremonial aspects of the law of Moses...
...Such as observing the Passover, Sabbath & other Feasts of the law of Moses.
...Because those types of things were "ceremonial" & they met their end in Christ who fulfilled the law.

The important thing to remember is that the 'moral OR natural law' is eternally binding as that law has always been in force...
...SDA's will attempt to use pleading arguments such as; 'Then it's ok to steal now'?
...This is a shibboleth argument and easily quashed.

It's wrong to steal "perpetually" while it was only wrong to gather sticks "on the Sabbath day"...
...This is an easy way to see the difference between a moral and ceremonial commandment.
...That being said there was still a 'moral aspect' to the Sabbath Commandment.
...Simply being that man is bound by nature to give some time to the honoring of his deity.
...It's just that the timing was ceremonial.

Aside from that the SDA's repudiate the Trinity as Orthodox Christianity has codified the Doctrine....
...SDA's advocate a 'creature christ' who had a conditional deity infused into him.
...A deity that was subject to be lost had creature christ sinned & lost his salvation.

In addition to that SDA's are Anthropomorphite ( believe God the Father has a rectum )...
..Among other very alien and odd beliefs.
..Watch out!


#16

[quote="SurlyMermaid, post:14, topic:269356"]
Interesting thread. I grew up around Seventh-day Adventists and later married into an SDA family.

I do wish other denominations would put a bit more focus on health. I strongly believe God intends for us to care for our bodies. I learned a lot from Adventists.

Their theology, though, I've never gotten on board with. There is too much going against Mrs. White and her writings.

SDAs are very anti-Catholic. :(

[/quote]

Like yours, most of my family is, or was raised, SDA. I don't mind that they light Sabbath candles and keep the Levitical dietary laws, but I do mind that they insist that everyone must do it and their practice is the authentic practice. Almost all of the observant Adventists I've met are ridiculously arrogant and rude when it comes to non-Adventists. I'd sooner attend a Kingdom Hall service.

However, one thing I think they have right--and JWs--is their emphasis on healthy lifestyle and diet. To tell the truth cleanliness and health isn't emphasized in Catholicism and amongst Catholics--a few of the latter even discourage both as being too scrupulous.


#17

The Church has not changed the sabbath, it's still Saturday. What the Church DID do was make Sunday its day of worship. Sabbath observance was for the Jews, not gentile Christians.

However, one thing I think they have right--and JWs--is their emphasis on healthy lifestyle and diet. To tell the truth cleanliness and health isn't emphasized in Catholicism and amongst Catholics--a few of the latter even discourage both as being too scrupulous.

The Catholic church promotes healthy living...they just haven't made doctrine out of it as the JWs and SDA have. I'd like to see independent medical studies that show the JWs or SDA are any more healthy than the rest of us.


#18

But then we dont follow the 10 commandments?


#19

[quote="TradionalWay, post:18, topic:269356"]
But then we dont follow the 10 commandments?

[/quote]

Naw. We still keep the Sabbath holy. We just go to church on Sunday. It's a common assumption, but an assumption none-the-less, that "keep it holy" means go to church, but there's no real reason to believe that.


#20

[quote="Yerusalyim, post:17, topic:269356"]

The Catholic church promotes healthy living they just haven't made doctrine out of it as the JWs and SDA have

[/quote]

Hardly. It would be more accurate to say that the Church has little if any official views on health and hygiene. Amongst the laity, neither are much of a concern, except when it comes to distributing the Eucharist or giving the Sign of Peace. In contrast, in the SDA and JWs communities, a healthy lifestyle supports a spiritually strong home. I'm not saying that that idea is incompatible with Catholicism -- but we certainly ignore it, and often dismiss it.

[quote="Yerusalyim, post:17, topic:269356"]

I'd like to see independent medical studies that show the JWs or SDA are any more healthy than the rest of us.

[/quote]

SDAs often follow vegetarian and vegan diets, or at the very least, avoid pork and shellfish (my family, even the religious ones, don't). Whether or not SDAs have healthier bodies or longer life expectancies than Catholics is another question altogether. However there's definitely evidence that vegetarians and vegans have lower health risks and live longer; there's also enough evidence, in my view, that it wouldn't hurt to give up pork.


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