Al-Jazeera and an islamic historian speaking about London


#1

Terrorism apology
Terror in London (7) - Head of London Center for Islamic History Hani Siba’i: In Islam, There Are No Such Things as Civilians; Al-Qaeda “rubbed the noses of the world’s eight most powerful countries in the mud”

The following are excerpts from an interview with the head of the Al-Maqreze Centre for Historical Studies, Hani Al-Siba’i, which aired on Al-Jazeera TV on July 8, 2005.

Al-Siba’i: I think that British Prime Minister Tony Blair made a grave error when he spoke before the investigation and claimed that the perpetrators of these acts were acting in the name of Islam. I think that he will pay the price for this grave error in the future. No possibility should be ruled out. We do not rule out the possibility that it was done by the intelligence agency of another Western country hostile to Britain. We do not rule our countries… or some Zionist Americans who wanted to overshadow the G-8 summit. But at the same time, we do not rule out the Al-Qaeda organization. It’s been claimed that Al-Qaeda died in Afghanistan, and was buried in the caves there. And behold: it was resurrected after the American occupation of Iraq. Moreover, Al-Qaeda controls the war agenda in Iraq. It is the Al-Qaeda organization in the Land of the Two Rivers (Iraq), headed by Abu Mus’ab Al-Zarqawi, that imposes its policies, to the extent that the Egyptian government was forced to… It was forced to recall (its ambassador), and other countries are afraid to send ambassadors there.

Host: He was not an ambassador, but rather a representative that was murdered, and then Egypt lowered its level of representation.

Al-Siba’i: He previously worked in the so-called “Israel.” What I want to ask is: can this organization do this? Is it conceivable that it did it? Yes, it is. Why? In the year… We must not forget that on April 15, 2004, Sheik Osama bin Laden released a taped message, in which he said… He gave… He reached out for reconciliation…

Host:

Just to recall, you are referring to the Madrid incidents, in which some 190 people were killed.

Al-Siba’i: After the Madrid incidents, he addressed the Western and European nations. Obviously, he didn’t address the leaders, whom he does not recognize. He talked to the Western nations about reconciliation…

Host: Excuse me, he gave them three or four months. But, forgive me, targeting civilians… You, as a Muslim and as the director of a center for Islamic history… Is targeting wretched civilians considered brave or manly?

Al-Siba’i: I think… The man (bin Laden) addressed these peoples so that they would pressure their governments. He told them: We did not attack you. You have been attacking us for more than two centuries, and your campaign continues. He said to them simply: Withdraw your soldiers from the Arabian Peninsula, withdraw from Afghanistan and Palestine…

Host: Excuse me, Is Sheik Osama bin Laden a religious scholar, who issues fatwas, or is he the head of Al-Qaeda?

Al-Siba’i: First of all, he is one of this (Islamic) nation. Allah… We have no clergy, or a pope, or anything like this. Anyone can carry out his religious duty, even if he is by himself.

Host: Mr. Hani, issuing fatwas is done by religious scholars.

Al-Siba’i: He has a Shura council, he has religious scholars… He wanted to debate with other scholars, but they refused. He asked to discuss matters with them, but they refused.

Host: The question, in short, is whether the religious scholars… Sir, the religious law assembly in Mecca at the end of last month issued a fatwa forbidding the killing of civilians. Should we follow it or Osama bin Laden?


#2

Al-Siba’i: These assemblies resemble the assemblies of the Church. These assemblies forbid young people from going to Iraq to fight the Jihad. These assemblies… The Higher Religious Authority (in Saudi Arabia) are the ones who allowed the presence of Crusader forces in the Land of the Two Holy Places (Saudi Arabia). These assemblies…

Host: Mr. Hani, make no mistake. The same assembly ruled that Jihad in Iraq is allowed against soldiers. Even Sheik Osama (sic) Al-Maqdissi, Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi’s mentor… OK. Abu Hani, OK… He asked Al-Zarqawi not to kill civilians and to attack only the Americans… I mean, only soldiers…

Al-Siba’i: The term “civilians” does not exist in Islamic religious law. Dr. Karmi is sitting here, and I am sitting here, and I’m familiar with religious law. There is no such term as “civilians” in the modern Western sense. People are either of Dar Al-Harb or not.

These institutes, like the Islamic Association (of Britain), represent white-collar people, the effendis, people with “prestige.” They only represent their own interests and do not mix in society. They don’t know… Ask other Muslims… People see them only on their TV screens. They don’t participate in the demonstrations for the poor. they are not interested in people’s problems. We invite them, and they don’t show up.

Host: The Muslim Association of Britain represents 400 Islamic organizations…

Al-Siba’i: These are all interest groups. With all due respect, the Muslim Brotherhood and the Sheik Moududi group do business with one another.

Host: Are you claiming they are not Muslims?

Al-Siba’i: They are behind all these movements. They promote some people nobody has heard of. Then they promote some journalists.

Host: Excuse me, who do you want to promote? Those who want the banner of “There is no god but Allah” over the Queen of England and Buckingham Palace? Those who want to establish a caliphate and turn the Queen of England into a captive? Those who say (England) is Dar Al-Harb and property there can be plundered? Are those the kind of people you want?

Al-Siba’i: These associations do not represent the Muslim public. They collaborate with the British police for certain interests. They want an “English Islam,” and not the Islam that was sent to the Prophet Muhammad.

If Al-Qaeda indeed carried out this act, it is a great victory for it. It rubbed the noses of the world’s eight most powerful countries in the mud. This victory is a blow to the economy…


#3

That man is a lunatic.


#4

He is indeed but that means that there are millions of lunatics in Islam.

Dan L


#5

The commentator tried to bring some sanity to the discussion. That is a good sign but the guest really was inflammatory and murderous in his observations.

How should we reflect upon this. Are the lunatics in control? Are the lunatics representative of a large enough portion of Islam so that war cannot be avoided? Or are the lunatics as much of a grave proplem for the vast majority of Muslims as they are to us?

Dan L


#6

Hi,

[quote=GregoryPalamas]He is indeed but that means that there are millions of lunatics in Islam.

I think that is a gross exaggeration Gregory. To say because there exists a group like al-Qaida and personalities like the one interviewed that millions of muslims carry such ideas, this is not fair. There are well over 1 billion muslims in the world. If there were indeed millions of the billion muslims having the same ideas and wanting to carry out the same agenda al qaida has, there would be complete chaos, especially in the muslim lands as they would try to topple the governments.

The commentator tried to bring some sanity to the discussion. That is a good sign but the guest really was inflammatory and murderous in his observations.

The guest has clearly been affected by the jihadist ideology that bin laden and those like him have been affected with. And as a Muslim judging his statements in relation to what Islam actually teaches, i know for certian Islam does not teach what he has said.

Civilians ARE recognized in Islam. Jihad MUST be with the army or invading force. It is strictly forbidden to kill innocent civilians, even if they are the civilians of the invading force. And there are clear proofs for this in the practice of the Prophet Muhammed himself. Never, ever, did he allow the killing of innocent civilians.

How should we reflect upon this. Are the lunatics in control? Are the lunatics representative of a large enough portion of Islam so that war cannot be avoided? Or are the lunatics as much of a grave proplem for the vast majority of Muslims as they are to us?

Let us first clarify one thing. Al Qaida is not some sophisticated worldwide organization or system. To describe them as such really gives them too much credit. Rather, the issue we are facing today is the IDEOLOGY itself, the jihadist ideology. For example, look at abu Mus’ab Zarqawi in Iraq… he used to be in a jail cell with a clergyman named Abu Muhammed Al-Maqdisi and he learned alot of this ideology from him. Abu Mus’ab however, he took what he learned a step further and began doing what hes doing today such that even Al-Maqdisi had to advise him to stop when it was he who taught him the ideology in the first place. Abu Mus’ab isnt working for bin laden or al Qaida. He’s doing his own thing, thinking hes doing jihad. Yes he holds the same ideology of bin laden, but that doesnt mean hes part of his ‘organization’. Same goes for the Madrid bombings and probably the London ones.

So the war here isnt with an organization, its with the ideology itself. Even Tony Blair in his speech on terror pointed out to this fact.

And yes, it is a very detrimental ideology for Muslims as well. Perhaps more harmful to Muslims than to Americans or Europeans. The media doesnt do much to show this but bombings have also been happening in Saudi Arabia as well. In Iraq, its almost daily that dozens of muslims are killed in bombings orchestrated by Abu Mus’ab and his group. Why are they killing Muslims? People with this jihadist ideology, if they consider a government to be apostate (no longer muslim), they hold anyone living under such a government and in any way shape or form supportive of it as apostates as well, thus making their blood lawful. In Iraq, you find Abu Mus’ab targeting Iraqi police, government officials, or anyone working for the government or even so much as voted in the elections, because to him the government itself is apostate and anyone who shows support for it must also be apostate.

Although the bin laden and al qaida have caught the attention of the world and its media, and made it seem as if Islam and Muslims support what they are upon, the reality is Islam is free from their ideology and the vast majority Muslims are against it. And those who are carrying out this dangerous ideology are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percentile of the Muslims around the world.
[/quote]


#7

[quote=Hashi Al-Eritre]Hi,

Civilians ARE recognized in Islam. Jihad MUST be with the army or invading force. It is strictly forbidden to kill innocent civilians, even if they are the civilians of the invading force. And there are clear proofs for this in the practice of the Prophet Muhammed himself. Never, ever, did he allow the killing of innocent civilians.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the same old story! If this is true, can you explain why a suicide bomber detonated a bomb that killed a bunch of children who were getting candy from an American soldier? What do you have to say to that?:mad:
[/quote]


#8

Listen booklover,

Would u perceive it as fair for me to judge christianity by what Richard and his Crusade did to the Muslims in Palestine? Did you know that massacre Richard ordered of killing all the Muslim captives he had (male, female, and children), no Muslim army has ever in history killed that many christians, nor even in the same brutal manner (ie. executing them one by one, men, women and children)!

I know better than to judge christians by what some overzelous fanatical crusaders did in the name of christianity that day! And you, reading replies from Muslims denouncing such acts, should know better as well than to judge a whole religion and its people by the actions of some overzelous fanatical jihadists too.

ANd what kind of explanation do you expect me to give? To tell you again Islam doesnt allow such acts? Ive already said this here and in other places in the forum, and many other muslim members have as well.

Lets be fair and just in how we judge one another and our faith, please. If you need clarification on something regarding islam, just ask. But if its the ‘same old story’ to you, then i leave you with your own judgements.


#9

your discourse is somewhat interesting but…would you be so kind as to tell us what the term “al qaeda” means? thank you.


#10

[quote=alih]your discourse is somewhat interesting but…would you be so kind as to tell us what the term “al qaeda” means? thank you.
[/quote]

In Arabic, “Al-Qaeda” has a different meanings, among them “Base", “Ground”, “Norm”, “Rule”, “Fundament”, “Grammar”.The exact meaning is dependent on the context in which it is used. It depends on the word which follows “Al-Qaeda” in the sentence. “Qawa’ad Askaria” is an Army Base, “Qawa’ad Lugha” stands for Grammar Rules (the Bases of Grammar).

Anyhow, i dont think it really matters what it means. Its just a title they gave themselves (or others gave to them).


#11

[quote=Hashi Al-Eritre]Listen booklover,

Would u perceive it as fair for me to judge christianity by what Richard and his Crusade did to the Muslims in Palestine? Did you know that massacre Richard ordered of killing all the Muslim captives he had (male, female, and children), no Muslim army has ever in history killed that many christians, nor even in the same brutal manner (ie. executing them one by one, men, women and children)!

I know better than to judge christians by what some overzelous fanatical crusaders did in the name of christianity that day! And you, reading replies from Muslims denouncing such acts, should know better as well than to judge a whole religion and its people by the actions of some overzelous fanatical jihadists too.

ANd what kind of explanation do you expect me to give? To tell you again Islam doesnt allow such acts? Ive already said this here and in other places in the forum, and many other muslim members have as well.

Lets be fair and just in how we judge one another and our faith, please. If you need clarification on something regarding islam, just ask. But if its the ‘same old story’ to you, then i leave you with your own judgements.
[/quote]

Oh not the Crusades again! Do you people ever stop talking about that? IN THE FIRST PLACE THE CRUSADES WERE THE RESULT OF MUSLIM EXPANSIONISM AND AGRESSION! If Muslims hadn’t conquered half of Christian territories by the sword, as they always do, there would not have been a need for the Crusades! Period!:eek:

We’re talking about atrocities that are happening now and you hedge by talking about things that happened centuries ago! Typical response! Your assertions that Islam does not condone any of these things is not convincing. Okay, then tell me, where do the terrorists and suicide bombers get their terrible ideas from?? Can you give me a straight answer??

When I asked Faith the same question, she said she didn’t know, but was very quick to say that people who bomb abortion clinics get their inspiration from the Bible!:rolleyes:


#12

[quote=Hashi Al-Eritre]Listen booklover,

Would u perceive it as fair for me to judge christianity by what Richard and his Crusade did to the Muslims in Palestine? Did you know that massacre Richard ordered of killing all the Muslim captives he had (male, female, and children), no Muslim army has ever in history killed that many christians, nor even in the same brutal manner (ie. executing them one by one, men, women and children)!

I know better than to judge christians by what some overzelous fanatical crusaders did in the name of christianity that day! And you, reading replies from Muslims denouncing such acts, should know better as well than to judge a whole religion and its people by the actions of some overzelous fanatical jihadists too.

ANd what kind of explanation do you expect me to give? To tell you again Islam doesnt allow such acts? Ive already said this here and in other places in the forum, and many other muslim members have as well.

Lets be fair and just in how we judge one another and our faith, please. If you need clarification on something regarding islam, just ask. But if its the ‘same old story’ to you, then i leave you with your own judgements.
[/quote]

All I’m asking is where are these people getting their inspiration from? They’re getting it from somewhere. Who or what is inciting them to commit acts of terrorism? What is your opinion?

When I asked Faith the same question, she said she didn’t know, but was very quick to reply that people who bombed abortion clinics were using the Bible as their guide!:rolleyes:


#13

[quote=Booklover]All I’m asking is where are these people getting their inspiration from? They’re getting it from somewhere. Who or what is inciting them to commit acts of terrorism? What is your opinion?

[/quote]

It isn’t hard to find if you open your eyes:

[/font][font=Courier New]Cleric: ‘I would like to see the Islamic flag fly, not only over number 10 Downing Street, but over the whole world’…


#14

[quote=Booklover]All I’m asking is where are these people getting their inspiration from? They’re getting it from somewhere. Who or what is inciting them to commit acts of terrorism? What is your opinion?

When I asked Faith the same question, she said she didn’t know, but was very quick to reply that people who bombed abortion clinics were using the Bible as their guide!:rolleyes:
[/quote]

Hi Booklover,

visit this thread, and watch that documentary. It is a concise history of how this ideology began in the 20th century. After that, i can refer you to more material if you would like to learn more.

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=64347

Do pm me or post a reply after watching it if you have any questions.


#15

[quote=When I asked Faith the same question, she said she didn’t know, but was very quick to reply that people who bombed abortion clinics were using the Bible as their guide!:rolleyes:
[/quote]

I totaly disagree with the statement above,

If an extremist person, who is following christ, we will be a saint

Jesus taught “Love your Enemy” how can you love your enemy if you bomb them?

These bombers are not christian, and definitely not catholic


#16

[quote=marlo]I totaly disagree with the statement above,

If an extremist person, who is following christ, we will be a saint

Jesus taught “Love your Enemy” how can you love your enemy if you bomb them?

These bombers are not christian, and definitely not catholic
[/quote]

I agree that they weren’t following Christianity but they are Christians… and the bombers of London and 9/11 attackers etc… definately were not following Islam even though they are Muslims… in either case… they (Christian or Muslim) are criminals and subject to Gods wrath.


#17

[quote=BrJimC]I agree that they weren’t following Christianity but they are Christians… and the bombers of London and 9/11 attackers etc… definately were not following Islam even though they are Muslims… in either case… they (Christian or Muslim) are criminals and subject to Gods wrath.
[/quote]

There seems to be a difference in motivation here. The bombers in London are trying to get Western influence out of Arabia and turn Arabia into a Caliphate ruled by Islam. Their stratigic goal is a world-wide Caliphate.

The bombers of abortion clinics are trying to immediately stop people murdering children.

It is not the same thing.


#18

[quote=gilliam]There seems to be a difference in motivation here. The bombers in London are trying to get Western influence out of Arabia and turn Arabia into a Caliphate ruled by Islam. Their stratigic goal is a world-wide Caliphate.

The bombers of abortion clinics are trying to immediately stop people murdering children.

It is not the same thing.
[/quote]

Actually its not just about caliphate. Infact from their main issues is Bush invading Iraq and Israel occupying Palestine. They basically always refer to oppression being committed to Muslims. Infact that is their driving force. They are very emotional about such things thus it leads them to do these acts.

In any case, whatever the reasons, the act is wrong and barbaric.


#19

[quote=Hashi Al-Eritre]Actually its not just about caliphate. Infact from their main issues is Bush invading Iraq and Israel occupying Palestine. .
[/quote]

Bush did not invade Iraq prior to 9/11

Bush did not invade Iraq prior to the bombing of the USS Cole

Bush did not invade Iraq prior to the 1st World Trade Center Bombing (one that al-Qaeda wanted to be just as devastating as 9/11)

(we can go on and list a lot of examples here)

Also note that the London bombers are citing Afghanistan as a major reason for the bombings.


#20

These people will not be satisfied until the flag of Islam is flying over every capital of the world.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.