All have sinned cannot be taken too literally


#1

The following verse cannot be taken too literally:

Romans 5:12

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.

Let me explain, if we are to take this verse literally true, then we can therefore conclude that Jesus, who is both God and Man also sin.

The word all doesn’t necessary mean all in Scriptural context. If you do, you can just say that Jesus sinned also which is untrue. Scripture does say that Jesus was like us except sin also.


#2

Only if you cut off the verse like you did…

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


#3

Yes, I suppose most people would agree that this would be taken as ‘…all men except Christ…’ I think that really goes without saying. In the very next verse (Romans 5:12) Paul, it seems to me, implies Christ as the very antithesis of sin: “…until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not interrupted when there is no law” - if we take the law to be Christ and His teaching, then the coming of Christ was an ‘antidote’ to the sin that existed.

Even if one was to take the verse literally - while we know that God became a man and could suffer like all men, He is different from all people since He is God- and he is God first. I know it is a bit of a contradiction to say this but we are the same and different at the same time - and it is sin that makes us different.


#4

It’s more of a paradox than a contradiction.


#5

Well, I didn’t. I am well aware of other verses, especially the one which I paraphrase that Jesus was like us except sin…


#6

John Martignoni cites an interesting cross-reference on this. Rm 5:12 reflects what Paul said in Rm 3:10 “as it is written: 'There is no one just, not one…” If you have a Catholic NAB, you can see all the cross references in the rest of chapter 3 to the OT quotes.

But anyway, Rm 3:10 goes back to Psalm 14:3: “Not one does what is right, not even one.” And then Psalm 14 gets a little more interesting…it contrasts these “evildoers” with “the just” who have God’s “company.” By this exegesis, “all” refers to “all evildoers.”

While original sin is literally with “all” (except for Jesus, Mary and their OT prefigurements Adam and Eve), not all people sin. There is of course the innocence of babies and the severely mentally incapable. And Scripture even eludes that John the Baptist may have been preserved from sin at some point in the womb (Lk 1:15).


#7

In principle, the OP is perfectly correct; but in the context, not.

If all have not sinned, & all are not under judgement for sin in consequence, not only is the argument of St.Paul made ridiculous & incoherent (in view of what he has already about the shared sinfulness of Jew & Gentile); but, in addition, all cannot receive grace.

Only sinners need grace - the righteous don’t; & this is one of the great paradoxes of the Gospel, that God justifies the ungodly, the guilty, those who deserve death. The righteous need no expiation for their sins; the Father “put forward” His Son as the propitiation for our sins (see 3.25). All that becomes meaningless, if all do not stand under the righteous judgement of God for their sins.

The doctrine of the CC cannot be built upon a basis which nullifies the teaching of the Apostles - it must find another basis instead, one that leaves St. Paul’s words & argument intact.


#8

Which is the reason we are tought to:

[LIST]
*]Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”

*]Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”

*]Be attentive to the analogy of faith
[/LIST]


#9

Well said.


#10

So then, what sin has a stillborn baby committed?


#11

None at all.


#12

Don’t stop there, look at the entire letter to the Romans. try to figure out what St. Paul intended with this verse.


#13

By this I mean St. Paul wasn’t condemning a Mary-worshipping cult, but admonishing the Jewish converts for acting as if they were better than the Gentile converts.:rolleyes:


#14

There are many places in the bible where the Greek word for all does not mean “each and every one”.


#15

True - & sometimes, it does mean “all”.

cf.blb.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=all&Version=RSV

1. (Gen 1:26 - Gen 6:22) is the first of 180 pages of over 5500 examples of the use of the word “all” in the RSV

Have fun ! :slight_smile:


#16

True, there is a verse that “Isreal will be saved.” Well, we know not all Jews except Jesus as the Messiah so they weren’t save…so all doesn’t mean all.


#17

Right. And then there is Matthew 3:4-6

4 John wore clothing made of camel’s hair and had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.
5 At that time Jerusalem, all Judea, and the whole region around the Jordan were going out to him
6 and were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they acknowledged their sins.
Does “all Judea” mean that every single person in Judea when John the Baptist was preaching and baptizing went to him to get baptized?

No. This is the distributive sense of the word “all” as the word “all” in scripture can have a distributive sense like “all have sinned” yet babies don’t actually sin.


#18

So, in your profile, you identify yourself as Catholic but do not hold to the Immaculate Conception or that Mary remained sinless as the Church officially teaches. Better rethink your profile…Just an observation, please correct me if I’m wrong…God Bless…teachccd :slight_smile:


#19

[quote=Gottle of Geer;3084405The doctrine of the CC cannot be built upon a basis which nullifies the teaching of the Apostles - it must find another basis instead, one that leaves St. Paul’s words & argument intact.
[/quote]

So then, with you identifying as a Catholic, how do you uphold the sinlessness of Mary as held by official Church teachings??

P.S. This is not going off of the topic of this thread since one would only question this verse for this purpose.
[/quote]


#20

The word, “ALL” doesn’t mean “some.” So when it says, “all sinned” it means “everyone” of some group. We can be certain that this group doesn’t include animals because it is impossible for animals to sin. By the same logic, “all sinned” can’t include Jesus, because it is impossible for Jesus to sin.


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