All will be saved


#121

Since you accuse me of using personal biblical interpretations, can you provide a magisterial interpretation of the following that indicates that there is a possibility that none will go to hell?

Luke 13:23-25
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them,
24 "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’

What is Jesus trying to tell us here?

I have read Article 12. I particularly find 1034-1036 relevant:

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

Why would He pronounce condemnation if noone was there to condemn?

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Do you propose that no one dies in a state of mortal sin, or that some die in a state of mortal sin and do not descend into hell?

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616

Those who enter by the wide easy gate that leads to destruction are MANY.


#122

What about 1038?

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"621 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."622 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him … Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left… and they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."623

Do you propose that there are none who have done evil?

If there are no “goats” and they are all to be saved, then why would Christ separate them?

From JPII’s Crossing The Threshold of Hope

The problem of hell has always disturbed great thinkers in the Church, beginning with Origen and continuing in our time with Sergey Bulgakov and Hans Urs von Balthasar. In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory of the “final apocatastasis,” according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which indirectly abolished hell. But the problem remains. Can God, who has loved man so much, permit the man who rejects Him to be condemned to eternal torment? And yet, the words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel He speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Mt 25:46). Who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard. This is a mystery, truly inscrutable, which embraces the holiness of God and the conscience of man. The silence of the Church is, therefore, the only appropriate position for Christian faith. Even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, “It would be better for that man if he had never been born” (Mt 26:24), His words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation.

At the same time, however, there is something in man’s moral conscience itself that rebels against any loss of this conviction: Is not God who is Love also ultimate Justice? Can He tolerate these terrible crimes, can they go unpunished? Isn’t final punishment in some way necessary in order to reestablish moral equilibrium in the complex history of humanity? Is not hell in a certain sense the ultimate safeguard of man’s moral conscience?


#123

You have your answer in your own citation. The Church is silent as to the population of hell. We can hope that all can be saved. I think we ought to hope that all can be saved. One who hopes for what one simultaneously believes impossible is mentally disordered.

Do you propose that those in heaven have not done evil?

Who do you know that has denied or been denied final penitence so as to die in mortal sin? Do you not hope that no one dies in mortal sin?

“For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible.”

Engaging in “bible-bingo” or inferring into the words of selected Church documents what you would like to believe is not helpful.

B XVI entitled his great encyclical Deus Caritas, not Deus Formidulosus.


#124

Well said.
This is my belief, and I think it is in conformity with the Church and Hans Urs von Balthasar.


#125

You have ignored most of my other quotes and have shortened this quote. The Church is silent on the population of hell meaning it will not say who is there (reverse canonization) or how many may be there, but it clearly indicates that there will be a category of people who are damned.

Do you reject the Fatima visions? While at the CFTDOTF, Cardinal Ratzinger had a few things to say regarding these visions:

An attempt to interpret the “secret” of Fatima

The first and second parts of the “secret” of Fatima have already been so amply discussed in the relative literature that there is no need to deal with them again here. I would just like to recall briefly the most significant point. For one terrible moment, the children were given a vision of hell. They saw the fall of “the souls of poor sinners”. And now they are told why they have been exposed to this moment: “in order to save souls”—to show the way to salvation.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

Not without repenting

I only personally know 9 people who have died. Two of them died instantly in tragic accidents. Of those, 1 was Catholic and definitely did not have time to get to confession, as they were killed instantly. Again, are you proposing that in the history of humanity, there has never been a single soul that has rejected God and remained in a state of mortal sin and died before repenting?

I hope that no one, especially anyone I know, dies in a state of mortal sin, but I also acknowledge that some have and some likely will.

CCC 393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

Ultimately, if believing that all will be saved helps you to have a better relationship with God and gets you to heaven, then who am I to stop you? I want you in heaven and if that gets you there, I will be overjoyed.


#127

For others, the promise of hell for the reprobate is a key element of a Just and Loving God, especially for those who suffer injustice in this life. As JPII says in the rest of the quote you referred to:

At the same time, however, there is something in man’s moral conscience itself that rebels against any loss of this conviction: Is not God who is Love also ultimate Justice? Can He tolerate these terrible crimes, can they go unpunished? Isn’t final punishment in some way necessary in order to reestablish moral equilibrium in the complex history of humanity? Is not hell in a certain sense the ultimate safeguard of man’s moral conscience?

I have tried to provide ample evidence for my position and against neo-universalism. I don’t have any more to add to this thread that will be any more convincing. In the words of St. Bernadette, “My job is to inform, not to convince”

May the Lord give you peace


#128

Still misquoting me. The claim is that Catholics in good standing may hope that all can be saved. I suppose that some Catholics in good standing may believe that some will not be saved. I prefer the former.


#129

Latin:

Catholicism doesn’t believe or teach that grace is “irresistible.” And Jimmy Akin doesn’t ascribe to "TULIP."
These are both non-Catholic ideas and usually associated with Calvinism and/or Arminianism. These are not “DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church.”

Whichever sources you are quoting (there’s no citation), they are either using mis-information or are taking it out of context, or both.

God bless you, as well.


#131

It seems that a compassionate and forgiving person in any “standing” would hope that all will be saved. This is God’s will, as well. But God has informed us by His own Word that there are those who willfully choose against Him and, if unrepentant at death, will be lost forever.


#132

The topic of predestination (single or double)? Yes, I agree.


#133

God bless you Teresa63 and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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The Catholic Church doesn’t have to say The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998) and God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance are IRRESISTIBLE and IRREVOCABLE graces, the fact they are IRRESISTIBLE and IRREVOCABLE graces comes out from The Predestination of the elect which is a DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
.
Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

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(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote.
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Continue


#134

Continue
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God’s free and undeserved gift of Initial Justification saves the Initially Justified, and His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance keep saved the Initially Justified and infallible makes sure every Initially Justified dies in the state of Grace. DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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As you see above Teresa63, for the receivers of the undeserved grace of Initial Justification and the undeserved grace of The Gift of Final Perseverance to die in mortal sin and to end up in hell DOES NOT EXIST because they are IRRESISTIBLE and IRREVOCABLE graces!!!

If a child/elect of God could/would resist the above graces would end up in hell and God would instantly lose His omniscience. – This will never happen.
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So, the above graces are IRRESISTIBLE and IRREVOCABLE graces. – DE FIDE Dogma, the highest degree of theological certainty. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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What do you think Teresa63, how God protects with His special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance (Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; etc.) His children/elect from to die in the state of mortal sin, by protect them from commit mortal sin, or only protect them not to die in the state of mortal sin?

Thank you in advance.
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God’s will is to save everyone, my will is that God save everyone.
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If God gives everyone His free and undeserved gift of Initial Justification, The Grace of His Call and His special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance then EVERYONE saved. – Not by saving the old corrupt man, but by RECREATION of the old corrupt man into God’s image and His holiness, (Ez.36:25-28; 1 Cor.6:11;
2 Cor.5:17; etc.).
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Do you think Teresa63 my above statement is Correct?

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God bless you Teresa63 and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin


#135

The correct Catholic teaching is:
The Church teaches that those who willfully choose against Him and are unrepentant at death will be lost forever.

I repeat: Only a disordered person hopes for what they believe is impossible. Integrity demands that If one believes that some are in hell then one cannot pray that all be saved.


#136

Those who believe that some humans are certainly in hell believe so only through human faith; not supernatural faith. The belief that some are in hell surpasses Revelation as interpreted by the Magisterium and does not belong to the Catholic deposit of faith.

See: Is it reasonable to hope all be saved?

CCC# 67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.


#137

Since only a few are saved, then only a few persevere till the end. God forces no one to be saved. He forces no one to cooperate with HIS will. And the result, few are saved. Not my words but from Jesus Himself, who knows every soul in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

All WILL BE SAVED is a heresy. It completely contradicts what Jesus taught us in advance…

Matthew 7:13-14 , https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mt+7%3A13-14&version=RSVCE

Luke 13:23-28 , https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=lk+13%3A23-28&version=RSVCE


#138

God bless Steve and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.

According to the economy of salvation of the Catholic Church and the Scripture, it is 100 % up to the Will of God that He saves only a few people or He saves everyone, and it is 0 % up to us.
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Matthew 19:25-26; (ESV)
25 … “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
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OUR SALVATION IS NOT OUR CHOICE BUT IT IS GOD’S CHOICE
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CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church, Simplified.

Explaining Justification
The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.

John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him,
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As you see Steve; our salvation is 100 % God’s choice and 0 % our choice.
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#139

Continuation
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The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
.
Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

.
(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote.
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THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
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So, Steve please look up to the above DE FIDE Dogma and please tell us: Who can lose his/her salvation by not persevere till the end???
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All WILL BE SAVED is NOT a heresy, it is the Eternal Design/Plan and the Eternal WILL OF GOD!!! – 1 Tim.2:4; 2 Pet.3:8-9; Rom.5:18; 1 Cor.15:22; Eph.1:9-11; Col.1:20; Ez.36:25-28; Jonah 4:11 (the way God saved EVERYONE in Nineveh, the same way God will save everyone in the whole world for HIS GLORY and because of His Love and Justice); CCC 677 (the Bride of Christ will come down from heaven with Christ to rule over the Nations, if the Nations in hell; Will they rule over the Nations in hell???); Dan.7:13-27; etc.
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#140

Continuation

FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS

Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most

What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?

Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.

Meaning, man does NOTHING and can do NOTHING to enter the state of Initial Justification. – Theological FACT.
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John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.
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Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
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#141

Continuation
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AS WE SEE ABOVE
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When God calls and draws an un-regenerated/carnal man into His service/salvation WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition and without regard to any future supernatural merits, His calling is backed up with an ABSOLUTE DECREE and in consequence of this DECREE, God gives them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent. + God’s free gift of Justification CCCS (1990-1991). + The Grace of God’s Call CCCS (1996-1998).
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At Initial Justification God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance given to EVERY initially Justified which grace INFALLIBLE makes sure every Initially Justified dies in the state of grace.DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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AS WE SEE ABOVE NO GOD’S CHILD/ELECT LOSE SALVATION IN CATHOLIC THEOLOGY.
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Initial Justification (Recreation/Born Again). + God’s call to Salvation (coming TOTALLY from God’s decision). + The Gift of Final Perseverance (Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; De Veritatis 22:9; etc.) given to EVERY Initially Justified. = Everlasting Life for the Glory of God.
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Initial Justification. The Gift of Final Perseverance (Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; De Veritatis 22:9; etc.). = God’s Positive Predestination to Hell!!!

This above teaching is NOT Catholic teachings, it is MOCKING the Love and the Justice of God!!!..
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RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT by James Akin

Quote: One is saved the moment one is initially justified.

Of course, a Calvinist can say (as a Thomistic Catholic would say) that both cooperations in the giving and the embracing of the eternal call are themselves produced (not just enabled) by God’s grace, and this is perfectly fine.

A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation. No problem at all. End quote.
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#142

Continuation
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Ez.36:25-28;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU [our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation] TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

28 Then you will live in the land, I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. End quote.
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Did you notice Steve?
The nations will live in the RECREATED earth (Acts 3:21; Rom.8:19-21; etc.), NOT IN HEAVEN, even the Bride of Christ will come down from heaven (CCC 677), to rule over the Nations (Dan.7:13-27; etc.).
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Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

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ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
"For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it."
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
"It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL."
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