Alle Menschen werden Brüder?

Oh dear, no Beethoven please, we’re British.

Why not just simply not attend?

And no Freude?

The political wing of English football tourism.

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Politicians mask their own incompetence by creating cheap emotional shows.

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Actually, although I have some contempt for Mr Farage and his fellow Faragists, I don’t object to their silly display in the European Parliament. Silent protest is not a dishonourable thing. But @Kaninchen jokes with a serious point. Like England football supporters they attract people whose conduct on the streets is not honourable. And nor are their politics honourable, either. If they restrain themselves to silent protest I’ll be pleased.

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I have to laugh when I read this. It has to be mentioned that Remainer politics haven’t exactly been the paragon of virtue. After all, the Remainers have spent the last 3 years doing their darndest to subvert the apparent majority vote by stalling, bad faith negotiations, appeals to the EU, slanted poll questions, biased media coverage, Operation Fear, etc. Everything they can bring to bear to grind Brexit into dust. Ultimately, they’ll succeed, but that shouldn’t be taken as a virtuous pursuit.

Most people involved have swept into the temporary position they’re in on the back of an electoral spasm and, since we’re about to crash out of the EU, they’ll soon be of no further use to their owners.

They’re doing what they’re told.

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On the whole what you say is wrong. But this in particular:

is quite uncalled for. The negotiations have been carried on either by Brexiteers or by former Remainers like Mrs May who are pledged to bring Brexit about. It is quite clear to me that Mrs May (of whom I am no admirer) has worked her socks off trying to get a deal and then trying to get that deal through Parliament. I am very happy to criticise Mrs May’s handling of the issue, but I see no grounds whatsoever for accusing her of bad faith.

Getting a deal which does not endanger the peace in Northern Ireland and doesn’t tip the UK off a financial cliff and passes muster with the fantasy-led Tory lunatic fringe has proved impossible. That’s fact, not bad faith.

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It’s always been my position that May gave away the goods in that ill-fated deal; that the EU got exactly what it wanted from May. Which explains why the deal never passed: because the MP’s weren’t going to be able to face the voters over it. It also explains why the EU was never going to renegotiate the deal unless it was faced with the imminence of No Deal. Which I think we can agree isn’t going to happen now.

Here you go:


And

If there is a deal so bad the other side is openly bragging about what they got, it’s a fair question to ask if May and her team of mostly Remainers negotiated it in bad faith.

@Kaninchen and @PickyPicky I pray for only good in your country. When I visited it people were very nice. Yes there is this thing of the football.fans and drinking. But otherwise I wish you nothing but good. I protest alongside those who have a thing against German anything because well… history. Plus the Ode of Joy is not Beethoven’s finest. Plus why should we have a song sung in German? Why not just the symphomic music and no language?
I hope.things work out well for UK after this Brexit. I don’t know how things will.be in EU after the Brexit. Especially for these sillier Eastern European countries to which one I belong to.who are easily lost in doing whatever with whomever to get funds. Why not grow the economy instead or asking for help?
I hope it’s all just games and dancing and nothing more.

I don’t think anyone, Brexiteer or Remainer, could suggest or has viably suggested that she acted in bad faith.

She staked her entire career on that deal.

Whatever one thinks of her (and I’m very critical), I do not for a moment doubt that she tried to achieve Brexit by the only means she believed were possible without having another hard border in Ireland that would threaten the peace process, cause unnecessary and ruinous damage to the UK economy with our main export market and to respect the referendum result.

The deal she achieved was the only withdrawal agreement that could be achieved and it’s compatible with any manner of Brexit you can think of in trade talks i.e Canada +, customs union, Norway, EFTA etc.

There is not one Conservative Party or Labour Party politician who could have got anything else, because that’s the nature of our bargaining position relative to the economic giant we are trying to extricate ourselves from.

What is it about the deal that you personally find objectionable?

The backstop is not even liked by the EU - it’s mandated by the peace process itself and the Republic of Ireland, that some kind of safety net be kept in place to prevent a hard border being constructed if the EU and UK fail to come up with new technology or means of keeping the border open without a customs arrangement. No one can change that - it’s the nature of the UK having a territory on the island of Eire that was the subject of guerrila war, terrorism and occupation for much of the 20th century that no one wants to go back to.

That Irish-UK common membership of the EU significantly helped to end the violence and create a peaceful situation and that this is now threatened by UK exit, is not the fault of the EU now is it?

So what other clause of the agreement is so damnable in your eyes? Paying off one’s membership dues?

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I’m particularly fond of the Waldstein sonata but it would be a bit long. :slightly_smiling_face:

It’s in what Beethoven’s variation of Schiller’s poem expresses, isn’t it?

There’s a lot of old pre-World War 2 baggage around, it seems to me (Orban as Horthy II, for example), though isn’t there?

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Thank you. Your prayers are very welcome.

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Yes, essentially it’s what is in the thread title.

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