Alright I'm getting fed up


#1

Another argument between my brother and I has led to some really good arguments, but he had me on a few. We started on indulgences, and fortumetly I had my catholic answer bible tracts to let him read on the matter, he had nothing to attack but on one passage that the tract listed that supported it and that was Mathew 18:18-20, where it says nothing of the church having that interveining power but the two individuals, “its whatever “you” and so forth, not the church”. What do I say to this. Secondly he claimed this passage as a proof that confession to a priest is not nessecary, that we only need to confess to God and that is it. it was 1st john 1:9. He also went on some tangant most of witch I can’t remember saying that we are to follow the commission and go to every land and preach the gospel, and our only great work is to whitness, works and so forth are not important and are unbiblical. And he is still using the argument that if it is not in the bible it’s not to be follwoed and critiques the catholic church on doing things that aren’t expresely in the bible. This entire argument stemed from him being bothered at every turn me being gothic, and has to challange me at everything I do, and frankly it’s getting annoying…


#2

[quote=Valtiel]Another argument between my brother and I has led to some really good arguments, but he had me on a few. We started on indulgences, and fortumetly I had my catholic answer bible tracts to let him on the matter, he had nothing to attack but on passage that supported it and that wasMathew 18:18-20, where it says nothin gof the church haveing that interveining power but the two individuals, “its whatever “you” and so forth, not the church”. What do I say to this. Secondly he claimed this passage as a proof that confession to a priest is not nessecary, that we only need to confess to God and that is it. it was 1st john 1:9. He also went on some tangant most of witch I can’t remember saying that we are to follow the commission and go to every land and preach the gospel, and our only great work is to whitness, works and so forth are not important and are unbiblical. This entire argument stemed from him being bothered at every turn me being gothic, and has to challange me at everything I do, and frankly it’s getting annoying…
[/quote]

It is apparent your brother is firmly set in the Protestant mode with no understanding of what the Church is or the Bible’s place in the Sacred Tradition of the Church. It all boils down to authority–who has it and who doesn’t, and why. Pick up or order a copy of By What Authority by Mark Shea. It will help you answer your brother’s questions. And, when you can answer him because of what you read, maybe he’ll read the book, too. :slight_smile:


#3

Where in the bible does it say it must be in the bible?


#4

Witness means more than just talk. Witness means living like Christ. Not many real witnesses around.–nicolo


#5

[quote=sententia]Where in the bible does it say it must be in the bible?
[/quote]

I already got him on that, Ia sked him if everything were supposed to beleive and follow and make cohesion to the christian life to then why aren’t the books currently in the bible listed one by one as supposed to be in the bible…
He was pretty much stumped…


#6

In Matthew 18:18-20, the Greek for “you” means “you as a group” or “collectively”, not “you individually” (earlier, in Matthew 16:19, when Jesus is talking directly to Peter, the Greek word means “you individually”). In Matthew 18, Jesus is talking to the disciples. Who are they but the first Church leaders. This authority is passed onto today’s Church leaders (the Pope and Magesterium), just as it was in ancient Israel. (See how in Matthew 23 that Jesus shows the ancient authority of Moses had been passed on to the Pharisees of his day. In the same manner, Jesus’ authority he gave to the apostles is passed on until today.)

In short, Jesus gave his authority to the Church, and with the Church it remains.

As for 1 John 1:9, the context is talking about those “holier than thou” types, like the Pharisees, who would dare to claim that they have not sinned. Instead, we should acknowledge our sinfulness, and “he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.” It says nothing about confess only and directly to God. Bring him back to Matthew 18 to show that the Church has the power to forgive sins in Jesus’ name. In order to forgive, the Church (i.e. the priest) must know the sins and therefore confession as we know it is established.


#7

I think it’s a mistake to argue minutae like indulgences with a Protestant. Move the argument, each and every time, to the question of authority, and the question of where the bible they champion comes from, and the question of how they know it is the word of God, and the question of why is the Holy Spirit guiding so many Protestants into so many conflicting beliefs.

That is, work to demonstrate the truth and authority of the Church first. From that truth and authority flow the answers to the minutae.


#8

[quote=Della]It is apparent your brother is firmly set in the Protestant mode with no understanding of what the Church is or the Bible’s place in the Sacred Tradition of the Church. It all boils down to authority–who has it and who doesn’t, and why. Pick up or order a copy of By What Authority by Mark Shea. It will help you answer your brother’s questions. And, when you can answer him because of what you read, maybe he’ll read the book, too. :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I’m affraid I can’t get ahold of it right now, is there anything online to this magnetude???


#9

[quote=nico1089]Witness means more than just talk. Witness means living like Christ. Not many real witnesses around.–nicolo
[/quote]

Hey Valtiel!
Use these passages…

1st Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you. 16 But with modesty and fear, having a good conscience: that whereas they speak evil of you, they may be ashamed who falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1st John 5:2 In this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God, and keep his commandments.

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father’s commandments, and do abide in his love.

Well said Nico!
Pax vobiscum,


#10

[quote=Valtiel]I’m affraid I can’t get ahold of it right now, is there anything online to this magnetude???
[/quote]

Well, there’s the articles on this website, which are downloadable, I believe. :wink:


#11

[quote=VociMike]I think it’s a mistake to argue minutae like indulgences with a Protestant. Move the argument, each and every time, to the question of authority,

and the question of where the bible they champion comes from, and the question of how they know it is the word of God,

and the question of why is the Holy Spirit guiding so many Protestants into so many conflicting beliefs.

That is, work to demonstrate the truth and authority of the Church first. From that truth and authority flow the answers to the minutae.
[/quote]

Hi
You can’t use this one because we all know that the Bible was given to us by God himself, it is after all the word of God and not the word of your church. You already have the word of your church, it’s call the CCC.
Thanks.


#12

[quote=NonDenom]Hi
You can’t use this one because we all know that the Bible was given to us by God himself
Thanks.
[/quote]

The canon is the inspired Word of God, written by humans, compiled and interpreted by Christ’s one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. So yes, this one can be used.
Thanks.


#13

[quote=NonDenom]Hi
You can’t use this one because we all know that the Bible was given to us by God himself, it is after all the word of God and not the word of your church. You already have the word of your church, it’s call the CCC.
Thanks.
[/quote]

And how did God give us the Bible? Did He send it down upon a pillar of flame, to prove its origins beyond any doubt?

You cannot point to a single word of the New Testament, especially, and demonstrate that it is inspired by God. Nor can you point to a single word in the non-canonical writings of the same era and demonstrate that it is not inspired by God. You simply cannot do it.


#14

[quote=NonDenom]Hi
You can’t use this one because we all know that the Bible was given to us by God himself, it is after all the word of God and not the word of your church. You already have the word of your church, it’s call the CCC.
Thanks.
[/quote]

You have the wrong end of the stick here, friend. The Sacred Scriptures are a part of the Sacred Tradition of the Church. IOW, the Church gave us the Bible, not the other way around.

And the CCC explains the faith with many supports from Scripture, it doesn’t replace Scripture any more than Protestant books on theology do. Yours is a strawman argument, but I think you know that. :wink:


#15

[quote=forthright]In Matthew 18:18-20, the Greek for “you” means “you as a group” or “collectively”, not “you individually” (earlier, in Matthew 16:19, when Jesus is talking directly to Peter, the Greek word means “you individually”). In Matthew 18, Jesus is talking to the disciples. Who are they but the first Church leaders. This authority is passed onto today’s Church leaders (the Pope and Magesterium), just as it was in ancient Israel. (See how in Matthew 23 that Jesus shows the ancient authority of Moses had been passed on to the Pharisees of his day. In the same manner, Jesus’ authority he gave to the apostles is passed on until today.)

In short, Jesus gave his authority to the Church, and with the Church it remains.

As for 1 John 1:9, the context is talking about those “holier than thou” types, like the Pharisees, who would dare to claim that they have not sinned. Instead, we should acknowledge our sinfulness, and “he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.” It says nothing about confess only and directly to God. Bring him back to Matthew 18 to show that the Church has the power to forgive sins in Jesus’ name. In order to forgive, the Church (i.e. the priest) must know the sins and therefore confession as we know it is established.
[/quote]

What is the greek for it???


#16

Bump…


#17

1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (KJV)
That doesn’t sound like something that disproves confession but, another reason to go to confession. If it said, Confess to God and not to a preist, there might be something to it but, it just says to ‘confess’ which is what we do in confession.


#18

[quote=Valtiel]What is the greek for it???
[/quote]

The greek word for “you” used when Jesus speaks to Peter alone is σοι (soi), which is singular. The greek word used for “you” when Jesus speaks to the rest of the apostles is οσα, which is plural.


closed #19

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