Am I evil?


#1

I have what some consider liberal views. I also don't think the church is right on everything. When I voiced these opinions on another thread 90% of people told me I was wrong. One even suggested I convert to the Protestant religion. Now, I don't think the church is infallible, look at the covering up of paedophile priests as a shocking example. Does this make me evil? Because I was always brought up to question everything and except nothing. Clearly covering up child abuse is wrong, so why not other things that I view as immoral?


#2

You're just wrong or uninformed, not evil.

The Church is indeed infallible in regards to faith and morals. No one is saying the Church is sinless. We are all sinners.


#3

[quote="PetrusRomanus, post:2, topic:319140"]
The Church is indeed infallible in regards to faith and morals. No one is saying the Church is sinless. We are all sinners.

[/quote]

How can the church be infallible and sin at the same time?


#4

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:1, topic:319140"]
I have what some consider liberal views. I also don't think the church is right on everything. When I voiced these opinions on another thread 90% of people told me I was wrong. One even suggested I convert to the Protestant religion. Now, I don't think the church is infallible, look at the covering up of paedophile priests as a shocking example. Does this make me evil? Because I was always brought up to question everything and except nothing. Clearly covering up child abuse is wrong, so why not other things that I view as immoral?

[/quote]

An truly evil person wouldn't bother to ask the question lol. Remember that the church is by no means a museum for saints; it is a hospital for sinners. The church is infallible on faith and morals and the evidence points to this because there hasn't been a contradiction in doctrine or dogma in all its history. Not like Protestant Christianity or any other religion. This is merely evidence, not a proof. You are right to question everything but start by questioning the whole of your very statement. Of course we should keep what is true. If you except nothing then why should you even accept that statement?

On your question about immorality, why do you call a thing right or wrong?


#5

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:3, topic:319140"]
How can the church be infallible and sin at the same time?

[/quote]

Infallibility doesn't mean they can't sin. It never has. Lets not conflate definitions of terms.


#6

[quote="mrcruz117, post:4, topic:319140"]
On your question about immorality, why do you call a thing right or wrong?

[/quote]

I don't see how behaving in a way that hurts no one and helps many can be wrong.


#7

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:6, topic:319140"]
I don't see how behaving in a way that hurts no one and helps many can be wrong.

[/quote]

Oh dear me, please do not assume I am defending these disgusting cover ups. I am asking you in a boarder sense, what makes a thing right and what makes a thing wrong and why?


#8

Another example, a gay couple in a loving relationship who adopts children. The children brought up in a loving environment, do well and are happy. Compared to a situation where gays can’t adopt, the children grow up in care, become criminals as adults, cause further people to suffer and spend most of their adult life in gaol.


#9

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:8, topic:319140"]
Another example, a gay couple in a loving relationship who adopts children. The children brought up in a loving environment, do well and are happy. Compared to a situation where gays can't adopt, the children grow up in care, become criminals as adults, cause further people to suffer and spend most of their adult life in gaol.

[/quote]

Exceptions make bad laws. The fact of the matter is that men and women are different and more than love is needed to raise a child. A child needs both a mature male and female role model as they provide different needs to the child. It is no accident that over 80% of youths in prison grew up in single parent house holds. The problem isn't the number of parents, it is the form of parenting. I wouldn't want to subject children to such dire expectations so all things being equal, a loving traditional family is more fit to raise a child than a loving homosexual couple.

But you are missing the point of my question completely. besides your own arbitrary opinion, what makes a thing wrong and what makes a thing right and why?


#10

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:8, topic:319140"]
Another example, a gay couple in a loving relationship who adopts children. The children brought up in a loving environment, do well and are happy. Compared to a situation where gays can't adopt, the children grow up in care, become criminals as adults, cause further people to suffer and spend most of their adult life in gaol.

[/quote]

I think that you are not defining love correctly. There is nothing 'gay' ( which truly means bright, happy, frivolous, carefree) about the cross of homosexuality.

Words have meaning. I agree with whoever reminded us not to conflate terms.


#11

I posted some of these things on the other thread...but I think they are worth saying again...

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:1, topic:319140"]
I have what some consider liberal views. I also don't think the church is right on everything. When I voiced these opinions on another thread 90% of people told me I was wrong. One even suggested I convert to the Protestant religion. Now, I don't think the church is infallible, look at the covering up of paedophile priests as a shocking example. Does this make me evil? Because I was always brought up to question everything and except nothing. Clearly covering up child abuse is wrong, so why not other things that I view as immoral?

[/quote]

1) The pedophilia priests has 0 to do with infallibility. Whether or not Christ gave the Magisterium (Pope+Bishops) freedom from error when teaching faith and morals has NOTHING to do with whether or not individual Catholics (of any rank including clergy) can commit serious sins

2) You should always question things in order to learn more. You should doubt things in some cases. You should not doubt the Church teaching because it is of God. My dad is a doctor. If he tells me a medical fact I accept it. I may question WHY the info he told me is fact but I never DOUBT THAT it is fact. Its like that with the Church because we should never doubt the Church. I don't doubt my dad on basic medical facts (e.g. average body temp) because he is a doctor. I don't doubt the Church on faith and morals because they have been given authority to teach in the name of Christ.

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:3, topic:319140"]
How can the church be infallible and sin at the same time?

[/quote]

Why can't they?
Infallibility has nothing to do with the moral character of the individuals....

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:6, topic:319140"]
I don't see how behaving in a way that hurts no one and helps many can be wrong.

[/quote]

If this is really the case it isn't wrong. The problem is we always see things from our narrow worldly perspectives rather than God's. God sees how it goes against His plan. Thus we have to be objective observers and trust in Christ's word.

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:8, topic:319140"]
Another example, a gay couple in a loving relationship who adopts children. The children brought up in a loving environment, do well and are happy. Compared to a situation where gays can't adopt, the children grow up in care, become criminals as adults, cause further people to suffer and spend most of their adult life in gaol.

[/quote]

A gay couple in a loving relationship. Love means to will the good of the other. Engaging in sodomy is not love because sodomy is bad. Therefore, a truly loving relationship between 2 gays is entirely celibate and the individuals involved do not live together and that kind of thing.

Children should be brought up in a loving enviornment. Children should also have moms. Two gay men ---no mom present. Bad for kid.

Your last statement there-the solution maybe should be to encourage adoption and strengthen marriage and help religious orders rather than call sodomy marriage....we can fix problems without being immoral.

And as I said on the last thread. Homosexual activity is wrong because it is unnatural sexual activity, i.e. sexual activity in which the natural end may not be fulfilled. This is a sin against God. It is harmful because it distorts sex by changing its ultimate purpose, removing its reason for existence, changing its meaning and taking God out of the equation. This is harmful to society and to individuals. Especially to the spiritual life of individuals. What else do you disagree with the Church on?


#12

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:1, topic:319140"]
Now, I don't think the church is infallible, look at the covering up of paedophile priests as a shocking example. Does this make me evil?

[/quote]

Don't confuse the wrongdoings of some with the infallibility of the Church of Christ in matters of faith and morals.

I don't know what is meant by "liberal" but, for instance, justifying abortion and other intrinsic evils is as equally shocking for a Catholic as the cover-up of pedophile priests. If you learn more about them, you'll know why.

But you are not evil. Nobody is evil. We are all sinners in the eyes of the Lord. Some of us want to live with a penitent heart and according to the teachings that Christ gave and gives to His Church.

Some doctrines are evil. Some doctrines, teachings, philosophies, laws, and viewpoints are not just wrong, not just evil, but in fact of demonic origin.

What the Church teaches in matters of faith and morals, and especially regarding life is not just right, is not just holy, but in fact of divine origin.

Don't forget this, beloved sister in Christ.

And don't be too angry at those of us who lack the charity of Christ and his saints. We are poor sinners trying to help one another. We are sometimes scared by what we see coming. You are looking into the heart of love, but you are not looking with the eyes of prudence, that are far-sighted and that understand suffering and self-sacrifice are needed to avoid major evils.

Topics such as homosexual unions and adoption of children wound our hearts because we understand the suffering of those who suffer. Do you think that the disciples of Christ are heartless monsters? Do you think the disciples of Christ don't care for those who long to have a partner, to experience the joy of sexuality which goes beyond the mere momentary sensation into a greater realm, to have a family, to raise children who love them and call them mom, dad? We understand how that feels, and we also understand how it feels not to be able to have this. And we understand how intrinsically wrong some things are, which is why we will always teach them and be willing to suffer and be persecuted because of our teachings...a teaching of love, and a teaching that above all else loves the person, and above the person, God.

Never forget that in darkness the Catholic Church is a city of light. Don't be scared by the fact that there are some monsters that have found their way in...remember that you are looking at one living, beating Heart, and that all this Heart knows how to do is to love...then, everything will make more sense to you.

I have spoken with atheists who have the same argument against God that you present against the Church. This is because they fail to see God as a most merciful father, who loves of such an infinite love...of such an unbounded love...they look at some biblical quotes as shocking examples...and they reject Him.

The Church, the Bride of Christ, is one with Christ, and suffers the same things that He suffers.


#13

The Church is the guardian of the teachings of Christ. She gave us the New Testament and is the interpreter of the Gospels. For example, when Christ said 'this is my body' and 'this is my blood', it's been taught from the very beginning that Christ indeed gave us His Body and Blood in the Eucharist. Other Christians may not agree, and by not agreeing, it emphasizes the need to have an infallible teacher, that Christ knew others would come bringing different interpretations of the Gospel He left us.

When you see men sinning, that has been so from the very beginning. Christ sat at the table with Judas after all. That does not change what Christ left for us, to care for our souls, on earth.


#14

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:3, topic:319140"]
How can the church be infallible and sin at the same time?

[/quote]

**Infallibility and Impeccability are not the same thing. We are peccable (We are liable to sin). When the Pope or Bishops make a statement (The Bishops have to make it in union with the Holy Father) Ex Cathedra, they can teach nothing wrong. What happens in this instance is that the HOLY SPIRIT protects HIS Church by personally intervening and preventing the Pope or Bishops to teach incorrect doctrine or falsehoods. We are liable to sin though, even the Pope. Hence the reason for Confession.

Infallibility- A Gift of the HOLY GHOST towards HIS Church, You and me, so that we can always know the Truth

Peccablity- Something that we due to concupiscience and original sin are prone to do in our weakness, aka Sin.

These two things have nothing to do with the other. One is a DIVINE GIFT (Infalliblity) and the other is human fraility (Our sinfulness)**


#15

My dear friend,
You are not evil. I want to talk about that first. Human beings are weak, not evil, we were created “good”, remember? We do get tempted, we have disordered desires, we act selfishly, we sin constantly…but the point is: we fall. The Devil comes at us throwing anything in our path to dissuade us from the light of Christ. Sometimes this comes in the form of doubts. Always remember that the Devil can appear as an “angel of light”, and twist things, make good things look bad and bad things look good. The point is, we are weak sometimes and we give in to temptation. Only God can transform our hearts; what we have to do is give ourselves to Him and let him ‘have at it’, chip away at us, and make us better, make us new. But even in that process, we’ll have moments where we take two steps forward and one step back. The point is not that you have doubts, we all have doubts, it’s where you go and what you do about them, what you do to try and solve your problems. And from what I’m seeing now, you’re not abandoning the Faith and turning your back on the Church, you’re wrestling with it, challenging it, which shows you care.
I’m sorry if any of us have been rude or unhelpful, we tend to be a little protective of our God, and are offended by views we know would insult Him, but it should never get in the way of one of our responsibilities: helping to lead a soul to God, and witnessing by example.
If you believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the One, True Church, founded by Jesus Christ (or you want to believe this), then go before the Blessed Sacrament and tell Him so. Ask God to help you with your doubts, go to Him and say that you want the Truth, and He has all the answers and so you’re expecting Him to help.
You won’t get your answers in a day, or a week, or maybe even a month or two, but you will eventually, (God has perfect timing anyways), just persist. I think it was St. Thomas Aquinas who when he got stuck on something would open the tabernacle and stick his head inside :slight_smile: And St. Francis also prayed and prayed and prayed when he needed to make a decision until he knew what God wanted of Him.
The reason I mention this is that what we say, or what brilliant theologians will tell you is no substitute for the wonders the Holy Spirit can work in you, if you open yourself up to Him.
Having said that, I’ll answer what I can, and hope that others can redirect you to places that do a great job of explaining Church doctrine.
“Infallibility” does not mean “sinlessness”. Infallibility means that where matters of Faith and morals are concerned, the Church does not make a mistake-- meaning that what it teaches is right, is, in fact, right, because the Holy Spirit is moving the Church. Sin is when we don’t always live up to what we believe. Catholicism has never taught that pedophilia is okay (I promise you, it’s not in the Bible anywhere) and child molestation has never been a part of priestly vows, these are sins committed by the individual priest breaking his vows and frankly, excommunicating himself spiritually. I can never and will never defend the disgusting scandals, but I will defend the notion that judging a car based on the driver is wrong.
As far as homosexuality is concerned, it’s wrong because man and woman were not made or created to be in a same-sex relationship with one another. Males and females compliment each other, emotionally, biologically, and in a loving relationship that is supposed to reflect Christ’s love for us. In fact, I’ve even heard that before Eve was created, Adam had no gender. Once Eve was created, Man was made ‘limited’, and completed with the other half, Woman.
Just like it’s wrong to want to have sex with animals or our parents, it just wasn’t meant for us, it takes away from the love we were created to give and receive.
On a sidenote, (not dealing with homosexuality but with sin in general), know that the Devil is not going to tempt you with something you don’t like. Just because you want or feel like doing something doesn’t mean it’s okay all of the time.
Peace and Joy! I know I’ve written way too much, but anyway, I’ll keep you in my prayers, and hope you pray for me and for yourself as well.
:slight_smile:


#16

In a world where meaning itself and the difference between right and wrong trampled underfoot, it is impossible to make people understand why homosexual behavior is a sin.

Even Catholics and other Christians no longer get it.


#17

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:3, topic:319140"]
How can the church be infallible and sin at the same time?

[/quote]

You need to take a basic catechism class. The Catholic Church's infallibility rests on the Pope. The Pope is infallible only in matters of faith and morals and especially when those declarations are made ex-cathedra ("from the chair"). Papal encyclicals are binding on all Catholics as well. The Church does not sin. Individuals sin. All individuals who belong to the Catholic faith are sinners--including the Pope. The only sinless person was the Blessed Mother (and of course Our Lord). But, as Catholics, we believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church particularly in proclamations from the Holy Father in matters of faith and morals.


#18

[quote="Rabbitthekitten, post:6, topic:319140"]
I don't see how behaving in a way that hurts no one and helps many can be wrong.

[/quote]

Then you are a moral relativist.


#19

You are kidding, of course…


#20

Well put. Only one little correction: it is ONLY the pope who can proclaim truths ex-cathedra, not the bishops or even the bishops with the Pope.


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