Question for yall. A night club owner in Victoria Texas, asked two gay men who were dancing to a country song, to leave saying that if they wanted to dance to rap or rock songs. Do yall feel the night club owner had the right to ask the men to leave? Here is the incident in question.
OK, let us see…why should support this manager? If you are a customer you go there to have fun, yes? What happen between other people is really not your business at all. Gay-people are called to chastity and if they do something they should not do it is a sin but still not your call. We can’t live a normal life in a normal society if we constantly seek for sin so that we can feel better then others are. If it is not illicit for two persons who have the same gender to dance together it is really nothing you need to think about. If you don’t like it, leave. We do not judge, that is a very clear thing. God judge us, we don’t, unless we our self does not sin, but we don’t judge other people and what they do. We don’t have a need to agree but that is all we can do. BTW, when I was young there was always girls who did dance together and nobody did yell “gay!”.
My thing is that I feel the owner has the right to run his business as he sees fit. The two men in question were asked to leave because they were being disruptive. Chances are some of his other patrons had complained to him. My Grandfather, Uncle,.and Mother all ran a ballroom during my growing up. None of these things would have been acceptable and the older people who came there wouldn’t have tolerated that happenings. I’m not being judgmental of these guys, I just know what the Bible says on homosexuality. Personally, if my husband and I were to go to a dance where this kind of thing took place werwould tell the owner and then leave and not go back to that club. I know what it is like to be discriminated against. I’ve been asked to leave places myself for different reasons I just left and not gone back. Way I see it is if they don’t want to play with me, I’ll kist take my ball and go home. I’ll find someone else to love and accept me for who I am. Why can’t the men do the same thing instead of ranting on bringing negative attention to the club? Walk out and say to the owner, Peace and leave it at that?
Why don’t these men just open up a club in the area for homosexuals?
A businessman only has the right to run his business in accordance with the laws. Additionally many licenses, particularly alcohol licenses are privilege licenses - not rights. With accompanying requirements to adhere to, often including non-discriminatory requirements. The notion that they were disruptive is absurd IMO, the fact that the businesses recanted their original story and switched to that reeks of dishonesty and a loss of credibility. It comes across as if they realized their original excuse was outright discrimination and lawsuit worthy, so they changed it to something ambiguous.
We may hold the biblical view on homosexuality as Catholics, but if we live in this world and go out in this world we can’t expect to not come across it. Especially as it’s accepted by mainstream society. We also can’t choose to openly discriminate, unless we’re willing to be discriminated against as well. We don’t live in a Christian world… It’s a very Earthy world.
I agree that something seems amiss here. Changing stories is always fishy. I agree that businesses have the right to operate as they see fit in accordance with the law. However, as a Catholic who fully understands and accepts the biblical and doctrinal stances on homosexuality, I could not stay in good conscience that the way the owners behaved was morally just. We are called to be a witness to others. We are called to love, love and love some more. This does not mean embracing one’s wrongdoing and giving it the stamp of approval, but we are not to judge lest we be judged. We are not to point out the splinter in someone’s eye until we bother pulling the log out of our own. And, more specifically, we are instructed not to ostracize someone simply because of their sinful affliction, because we are ALL sinfully afflicted with something. Leading one another to heaven is our first mission. How is throwing someone out simply because they are gay accomplishing that? What is being taught? What is being learned? What example is being set?
Legally, the owner may be wrong. Morally, he is right (based on these limited details). He has the moral right to protect his business and to try to promote an environment his patrons will enjoy. Not every bar needs to be a “gay” bar and not everyone who wants to go to a club needs to be subjected this kind of thing. You are not wrong for supporting his moral stand even in the face of the legal environment.
No, I don’t think you do. The Bible doesn’t say men shouldn’t dance together, and it doesn’t say that gay people are wrong to be gay. The Bible condemns sodomy – that is, unnatural sexual behavior. And I very much doubt that these two men were engaging in sex acts on the dance floor.
Way I see it is if they don’t want to play with me, I’ll kist take my ball and go home. I’ll find someone else to love and accept me for who I am. Why can’t the men do the same thing instead of ranting on bringing negative attention to the club? Walk out and say to the owner, Peace and leave it at that?
Why don’t these men just open up a club in the area for homosexuals?
Perhaps they don’t want to dance in a club for homosexuals?
What is “this kind of thing”? You wouldn’t oppose two men dancing together as a joke, right? Then what logical objection can be made to two men dancing together sincerely? Dancing isn’t morally wrong, whoever the partners are – at least so long as the partners are conducting themselves with decorum.
I am totally depending on Finnish law in this matter, and I am no lawyer, as you know I don’t understand any other books then The Bible and can’t learn anything from a book, I learn by looking and hearing, like I do with languages, so I try to look at this as I have seen on TV about matters like this. In Finland the owner have the right to chose customers AS LONG AS THE REASONS ARE NOT THE CUSTOMERS FAITH, GENDER, POLITICAL VIEW, SEXUAL ORIENTATION OR NATIONALITY. I think these are pretty good things to work with, so, in Finland that could not have happen.
And, yes, as you said, and as I said, we shall not judge. If others sin we have a certain obligation to TRY to make them do what is right, that obligation however is, IMHO, meant only close family, that is as far as we have jurisdiction in matters that concern sin. So, what is really bad if two men dance together? If we really think about it, nothing, absolutely nothing. That does not mean that we approve it, but also that we don’t judge it. As you wrote, all judging is up to God. It is wrong to sin, but even more wrong is to condemn people who have a different view of life then we have. Catholics are not “super people”. It is not a exclusive club, it does not give us a right to think we are better and therefore also have the right to say how things should be done. Nope, we are not THE Church, we do as the Church teach us, we must set a example but only in behavior. We do not have a right to interfere in others life only because we are Catholics. Christ did teach us a very important thing, one we should never forget, love our neighbour as we love our self. The whole Christianity is leaning on that single sentence. That does not mean we should approve what is sin, but neither should we condemn others, that is not our right or obligation. Why some people have sexual feelings toward the same sex is something we may never know, but we must love them to, and pray for them. They need our prayers to stay in chastity.
Having a pair of gay patrons does not bring about the stigma of an abode being a gay bar. Claiming moral superiority about not accepting gays while earning an income from supporting drunken revelry, sexualization, etc. in a night club playing apparently country to hip hop doesn’t come across as genuine IMO. Claiming a moral right in this regard comes across as absurd to me, IMO.
I was thrown out of a club in Texas myself… You know what I did? I LEFT, and went somewhere else. The owner of the club should be able to decide who can be in his club. In my case it was for being disruptive, but in any case, the owner makes the rules.
Even though I’m a lawyer, I disagreee with overintrusive laws telling us what we can do with our private property. I’m also tired of people suing every time someone is offended or upset. Boo-hoo, get over it. If you are gay, fine. But don’t expect everyone to accomodate you.
You may say “Boo-hoo” now because you don’t consider dancing in a night club to be necessary for living. But the argument you make could just as easily be applied to a restaurant owner who refuses service to gays. What are we goIng to do? Starve them into righteousness?
Gays have every right to expect reasonable accommodations from society, both legally and morally, in those areas that are not strictly related to immoral activity.
It’s been a while since I’ve hit the nightclubs, but I do generally support the owner’s right to enforce what goes on in the club.
If this were gays discriminated against in employment or harassed in the public schools I’d probably be taking their side. But this is something different. You might want to promote your establishment as a certain kind of club, and the management might think other patrons might think it’s “that kind of club” and would stay away. Just as I’d support the right of the owner of a gay club to keep me out. And just as I’d support dress codes or other conduct rules like kicking someone out for fighting.
By the way, I don’t agree with the supposed reason for the decision (“disruptive,” “safety risk”).
The owners of the club have the right to say no same-sex couples dancing, but if they do, then they should have the same rule for all same-sex dancing couples, not just the ones they think are gay. It sounds like this is a rule they made up on the spot. I didn’t see the part where the manager explains how he thinks they were being disruptive, so I guess that bit is for the court to decide. Since the details are a little murky, I wouldn’t offer my support for the bar owner.
Obviously, if the owner/manager knew it was a “gay” couple, they weren’t just two guys dancing together as a joke. They were not conducting themselves with decorum appropriate for that venue or it wouldn’t have been an issue.
Two men dancing together as a couple IS morally wrong and it is not consistent with the decorum expected in that particular establishment.
When is the gay community going to learn and practice propriety?
In the culture of the good ole’ U.S A., guys don’t dance with guys. It is “sort of” OK for girls to dance with girls but not exactly proper. In other cultures it may be acceptable for men to dance with men but…Texas??? come on.
Now, when I picture two gay guys dancing with each other in a Texas red-neck nightclub, I ask myself the question…what sort of suicide mission are these guys on?
Maybe the manager saved their lives…we don’t know how many of the "good-ole’-boys were on their way out to the parking lot to get shotguns from their trucks…do we? It could have gotten real ugly.
Right or wrong, legal or morally… the lesson here is simple: gay guys dance with guys at gay clubs but dance with the gals at red neck clubs. :tiphat:
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