American Inquisition


#1

Am I the only one who sort of hope that the Church institutes an Inquisition (in its proper usage) here in America to flush out and eliminate the radical, dissenting elements of American Catholicism that are killing the Church here? I know alot of people think Inquisition and automatically think of a human barbeque, but I simply mean an inquiry into people who are ordained to maintain and teach the Catholic truth, but are abusing their pastoral and ministerial mandate by corrupting doctrine with dissenting views, and then disciplining or removing those who prove to be incorrigible?


#2

Good thought!
But wouldn’t it first start with the Bishops.
The priests who know better, and still (without spines) go against the Church’s teaching, would be next.

The Bishops are the first in line and should be first Taught (or re-taught) in what the Church REALLY teaches. I am sure the Bishops (haven’t been to school) for decades. Maybe five them a chance to understand what the Church teaches, first.
Then left them reflect on WHY they entered the Religous Life.
After all this, if the Bishops STILL think otherwise, then they should be given the chance to resign.

After the Bishops, then the Priests.

Sure, this will reduce the ranks, of small numbers to begin with. I am sure after this ‘cleansing’ takes place, the Holy Spirit will open the hearts of many and the vocation will thrive once more.


#3

It is such a widespread problem now that I worry there is no way this can happen. It would require the formation of some sort of investigative committee – which would cost more than the national debt to implement, I imagine.
I believe that the second Vatican Council let a lot of trash into the Church, and now it is so deeply piled up that the subflooring needs replacing before anyone can stand securely again. In (just) my opinion, someone needs to come out and pronounce V2 invalid, and return us promptly to using the good old Baltimore Catechism for religious education.


#4

I don’t think that’s a good idea


#5

[quote=Cherub]It is such a widespread problem now that I worry there is no way this can happen. It would require the formation of some sort of investigative committee – which would cost more than the national debt to implement, I imagine.
I believe that the second Vatican Council let a lot of trash into the Church, and now it is so deeply piled up that the subflooring needs replacing before anyone can stand securely again. In (just) my opinion, someone needs to come out and pronounce V2 invalid, and return us promptly to using the good old Baltimore Catechism for religious education.
[/quote]

I don’t think V2 had that much to do with what is going on. Much of the sex abuse occured before V2 and that is certainly against Catholic teaching before and after V2. There is nothing illicit about V2, it was the misinterpretation of it that allowed all the crud in.
I don’t see that it would cost very much at all to investagate and discipline the bishops. It is obvious who is and is not following the rules. Once the bishops have been corrected and are following Church teaching they can insure that the priest are doing so and then the priest can and should insure that parishioners are doing so. I would also add that at the same time the priest are being corrected national politicians should be told either follow the Church or leave.


#6

[quote=Cherub]It is such a widespread problem now that I worry there is no way this can happen. It would require the formation of some sort of investigative committee – which would cost more than the national debt to implement, I imagine.
I believe that the second Vatican Council let a lot of trash into the Church, and now it is so deeply piled up that the subflooring needs replacing before anyone can stand securely again. In (just) my opinion, someone needs to come out and pronounce V2 invalid, and return us promptly to using the good old Baltimore Catechism for religious education.
[/quote]

My friend Vatican 2 was a council of the whole church that is sure norm. The Baltimore Catechism was simply formed from a council of the American Bishops in response to the American church that was out of control. What specifically about Vatican 2 do you think should ‘be pronounced invalid?”

I agree with you that having our American Bishops should get together and come up with a sure norm, that would be a great thing as long as it is based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I also agree with Scott that we need to hold the feet of our teachers to the fire. Bishops or Priests either need to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church or there is like 3 new protestant churches started a day, they should feel free to join them.

     This is the Catholic Church founded on the truth, and that truth has a name, that name is Jesus Christ.  If they will not live up to their obligation of giving us the truth that we have a right, to they need to get out. 

An Inquisition is exactly what is called for here. I think the Inquisition should be limited to clergy and the Bishops.


#7

[quote=Cherub]It is such a widespread problem now that I worry there is no way this can happen. It would require the formation of some sort of investigative committee – which would cost more than the national debt to implement, I imagine.
I believe that the second Vatican Council let a lot of trash into the Church, and now it is so deeply piled up that the subflooring needs replacing before anyone can stand securely again. In (just) my opinion, someone needs to come out and pronounce V2 invalid, and return us promptly to using the good old Baltimore Catechism for religious education.
[/quote]

I believe there already is an investigative body. Ratzinger heads it up.

Scott


#8

I read somewhere that the Holy Father had been slowly, gently, but inexorably, placing hand picked people into places of authority in the American Catholic Church. Turning the ship, as it were, very gradually.

Does this sound like it might be the case? Wishful thinking?

If true, would you term this a “stealth inquisition” of sorts?


#9

[quote=Scott Waddell]I believe there already is an investigative body. Ratzinger heads it up.

Scott
[/quote]

If that’s the case, then perhaps he or his delegates should come over here and quietly nose around and see what’s going on.

The Church, just like a large corporation, has a chain of command and a lot of things get covered up until somebody at or near the top talks to somebody at or near the bottom. Maybe the laity needs a contact at the Vatican to report things to. A person who makes a report would then be a contact and a starting point for the person conducting the investigation.


#10

By all means! Bring on the Inquisitors.


#11

[quote=roymckenzie] What specifically about Vatican 2 do you think should ‘be pronounced invalid?”

[/quote]

I agree that Vatican II did not specifically invite the foul wind of progressiveness that entered the Church immediately after it – but it is at least the cause and the enabler. It is the most errantly referred-to council that ever convened on the face of the earth. Ask any radically “innovative” liturgist, priest, or layman why this or that illicit thing has been brought into practice at his parish, and the answer you will get is “Oh, well, Vatican II of course. Since the time of Vatican II, we don’t need a crucifix anymore in the sanctuary. Vatican II told us our focus is supposed to be on the resurrection…” etc… (I could list an entire page of examples of this that believe it or not are far worse.)
Something about that council has thrown wide the gates for all manner of sacrilege and profanation to enter the Church under the guise of adherence to Vatican II. It no longer matters if any of it was actually called for: it has happened. And I just can’t help thinking that something that has encouraged this much chaos to erupt must not be good. Know it by its fruit.


#12

An inquisition is not needed. What is needed is for laypeople, like ourselves, to live consistent lives. We must order our lives in accord with Catholic social teaching, whether we understand it accurately or not. We must treat what the Church teaches in this area the same as we treat that which She teaches theologically…with extreme reverence and humble submission.

Too many persons identifying themselves as Catholics approved of the murder of Terri Schiavo. Too many have separated from or even divorced spouses. Too many feel it is perfectly fine to use artificial birth control, to practice oral/anal sex, to view pornography, to masturbate. Too many persons approve of embryonic stem cell research and alternative forms of fertility treatment that destroy fertilized human embryos. Too many people Catholics fail to respect the dignity of human life and of human sexuality. That is the crux of the matter. We make excuses for our failures. We justify what we have chosen to do. We blame others or our circumstances for our own moral depravity.

I know this is difficult to hear, but unless individual Catholics clean up their own personal lives, the Church will not be transformed. We must take the logs out of our own eyes before we dare remove the specks from the eyes of others.

Repent…Trust…OBEY


#13

[quote=Cherub]I agree that Vatican II did not specifically invite the foul wind of progressiveness that entered the Church immediately after it – but it is at least the cause and the enabler. It is the most errantly referred-to council that ever convened on the face of the earth. Ask any radically “innovative” liturgist, priest, or layman why this or that illicit thing has been brought into practice at his parish, and the answer you will get is “Oh, well, Vatican II of course. Since the time of Vatican II, we don’t need a crucifix anymore in the sanctuary. Vatican II told us our focus is supposed to be on the resurrection…” etc… (I could list an entire page of examples of this that believe it or not are far worse.)
Something about that council has thrown wide the gates for all manner of sacrilege and profanation to enter the Church under the guise of adherence to Vatican II. It no longer matters if any of it was actually called for: it has happened. And I just can’t help thinking that something that has encouraged this much chaos to erupt must not be good. Know it by its fruit.
[/quote]

My friend there is nothing I have ever read out of the documents of Vatican two that support the kind of abuses you have described. In fact there is nothing I have read out of the documents of Vatican two that support any kind of abuse. What I believe is it would be the liberally mind individuals in authorities in the church used the ignorance of the 70’s and 80’s a willing media and corrupt leadership to do the work of the devil.

What an Inquisition would do is root out the remaining progressive Church leadership. Remember either you are with God and you adhere to his teaching or you are progressive and believe his instructions were only suggestions. Truth has a name, that name is Jesus.

The rotten fruit is the leadership that is not willing to give us our right. We have a right to the truth.


#14

[quote=4 marks]An inquisition is not needed. What is needed is for laypeople, like ourselves, to live consistent lives. We must order our lives in accord with Catholic social teaching, whether we understand it accurately or not. We must treat what the Church teaches in this area the same as we treat that which She teaches theologically…with extreme reverence and humble submission.

Too many persons identifying themselves as Catholics approved of the murder of Terri Schiavo. Too many have separated from or even divorced spouses. Too many feel it is perfectly fine to use artificial birth control, to practice oral/anal sex, to view pornography, to masturbate. Too many persons approve of embryonic stem cell research and alternative forms of fertility treatment that destroy fertilized human embryos. Too many people Catholics fail to respect the dignity of human life and of human sexuality. That is the crux of the matter. We make excuses for our failures. We justify what we have chosen to do. We blame others or our circumstances for our own moral depravity.

I know this is difficult to hear, but unless individual Catholics clean up their own personal lives, the Church will not be transformed. We must take the logs out of our own eyes before we dare remove the specks from the eyes of others.

Repent…Trust…OBEY
[/quote]

My friends I am sorry but your examples are straight theology. Check the Catechism of the Catholic Church those things are rock solid theological truths. A big part of the problem is we have priests that say artificial birth control is licit. We have church leadership that says better to masturbate than to cheat on your spouse. Some of the Bishops are not demanding that their Priests teach the truth. Heck I don’t think all of Bishops believe in the truth. Remember the truth has a name that name is Jesus.


#15

Would a laity based ‘inquisition’ be licit? We could all grab a copy of the GIRM & the Redemptionis Sacramentum and visit every parish in our diocese. Report any abuses to the Bishop…if the answer he gives is unsatisfactory, forward the info up the CoC…

Shall we…?


#16

[quote=Isidore_AK]Would a laity based ‘inquisition’ be licit? We could all grab a copy of the GIRM & the Redemptionis Sacramentum and visit every parish in our diocese. Report any abuses to the Bishop…if the answer he gives is unsatisfactory, forward the info up the CoC…

Shall we…?
[/quote]

While there is an official office for the Inquisitor and most of us could never fill that office as it is currently being filled by a Cardinal you have an excellent plan. We have a right to be Catechized correctly.


#17

For all of the "slash and burn"ers.

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ375.HTM


#18

A short defense of Vatican II.

matt1618.freeyellow.com/dpalm7.html


#19

[quote=Cherub]It is such a widespread problem now that I worry there is no way this can happen. It would require the formation of some sort of investigative committee – which would cost more than the national debt to implement, I imagine.
I believe that the second Vatican Council let a lot of trash into the Church, and now it is so deeply piled up that the subflooring needs replacing before anyone can stand securely again. In (just) my opinion, someone needs to come out and pronounce V2 invalid, and return us promptly to using the good old Baltimore Catechism for religious education.
[/quote]

It would appear that you have never sat down and actually read the documents of Vatican 2; if you had, you would not say what you do. Vatican 2 did not let the trash in; and returning to the Baltimore Catechism might be fine for someone who has not yet been confirmed - that is, a child - but faith never stopped at the BC. You might try reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The Church has many problems, but it is beyond even a simplistic answer to blame it on Vatican 2. Your comments suggest that you might not believe in the direction of the Holy Spirit, who guides the Church in such diliberations.

Implementation of some aspects of the documents of Vatican 2 have been spotty, but that is not the fault of the Council; it is the fault of the bishops and the priests (and not a few cardinals) who did, or did not, effectively implement the documents. You might also try to read some of the historical aspects of the Church over the last 100 years; you would see from that that Vatican 2 was not an abberation.


#20

Scott,

This isn’t a bad idea.:thumbsup: Find out who the one’s who AREN’T are…yes, yes, that…YES!!! I like that. I like that very much.:thumbsup:


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