An argument I now regret having


#1

I just had an argument, and the only thing I now have is a headache.

I went out and a lady drove me home. The more I get to know this lady, the more I sense we are on different wavelenghts. I try not to judge and respect her opinion. After all, she drives me home for which I am very grateful. But sometimes I get annoyed with how she complains about silly things.

I also know, she is a Catholic who quit going to church when all the sex scandals came out. She told me herself she became disillusioned. I never quite understood how one could get disillusioned unless they never really had the gift of faith.

Well, tonight on the way home, she started complaining about all the Muslem (sp?) immigrants are being let into Canada and saying that in 10 years, women will no longer have any rights because of them. Well… I did not like her complaining. I also took offense because I work with a few Muslems that are actully nice guys and I consider have gone from co-workers to friends. Just because we have different religious beliefs is no reason for me to not be their friend.

Well… this lady kept saying that Muslems were going to put Canadian women back into the home. When I asked her how she though they would do that she replied ‘They all have 14 kids when Canadians only have 2. Within a generation they will outnumber us’.

Well that was the last straw. I said ‘If Catholics are going to choose to use contraceptives, then they don’t have the right to complain if Muslems have 14 kids’. Well this just opened up a 2 hour discussion about papal infaillibility to contraceptive to everrthing.

The only conclusion I can make is when someone’s mind is made up to reject the church teachings, there is no changing it and all I can do is pray to accept others.

Also, everytime I tried to say the Pope is only infaillable when he guides the teachings of the church and it doesn’t change the fact that the Pope is a sinner and could turn around and sin, she told me I was naive and that I was disproving my whole argument. She just did not see it the way I do, which I am more than willing to accept, I just resent she was not willing to respect my opinion.

And then she started telling me ‘What if you follow all the teachings of the church and when you die you find out there is no Heaven’ Well, how can I argue with something that I believe fundamentally makes no sense??? Then she started asking me where hell was. I don’t care where hell is, all I care is making it to heaven.

Then she started telling me that children born to single mom’s on assistance can not be happy. To which I kept saying ‘I can not judge that and why criticize a child who had no control over where he was born’ and that just made her mad at me.

The long and short of it is, both of our minds were made up and we weren’t going to budge. I just wished I never had this discussion.

I am not even sure I know what I am looking for here. Any comments are appreciated

CM


#2

Well, I'm not sure how all Catholics respond.

But I know I had a real internal battle when this stuff came out... 1) I had personal dealings with one of these priests... You question your own judgement.... You are angry to have even gone to such a person for any sort of councel... etc. 2) I went to a Catholic elementary that it turns out a group of boys that are MY class, and above and below for about 2-3 years on either side were TERRIBLY abused. There is pain here... There are people I KNOW that lost their faith, because the most trusted destroyed it.

That's hard... these feelings are real. They hurt, and they cloud judgement.

What guided me back???? Reading about Padre Pio, and his stick!!!! I was very angered as I read his story, and read that men the Pope sent to investigate his stigmata LIED!!!! HOW DO YOU LIE TO THE POPE???? They said he was faking. That angered me. This sweet man, wanting nothing but to devote his life to God, and these people LIEING...

And I was just reading a book... FURIOUS! And then I kept reading... and read how Padre Pio just kept plugging along. He knew he wasn't faking. He suffered the injustice, and the unfair punishement...

And finally I realized... I'm such a whiner! Look at what lies he endured, and still stands tall for God. People fail. It hurts us, we physically feel that the most. We must figure out how to press forward.

It's hard. I feel sad there are certain priests I meet and I think... step away from my son buddy. But hey, I'm not going to ignore my instincts about the possability that a devil may be standing before me in sheeps clothing.

That does NOT MEAN he truly represents...

Pray for this woman. She needs it badly.

Also regarding the Muslim issue. You know... I put this into my thought process of:

A man is smart... but people are stupid. We live in a world where the GENERAL feeling from many Muslims is they hate Christians, and they hate America. Just watched a special on the movie Iranium. SCARY.... SCARY stuff. And when you see 1000's of people shouting death to America, and then you see Sr. Analysts discussing how certain dangerous countries are getting closer and closer to being able to deliver their dream destruction... That's SCARY... And sadly invites racism...

I know a handful of Muslims. Wonderful people. Who believe in a good God, from all that I can tell. And they are fine upstanding families. They don't believe in killing innocent people. People you would invite to your home. We live in a very confusing time....


#3

Hi Faithfully,

Thanks for your reply and pointint out the other side of the coin. To be honest, I think I am most upset about how she started calling me naive and raising her voice rather than agree to disagree.

And I don't think it is so much the difference of religious belief half as much as she criticises everything to the last small detail. For example, I live in a condo and the laundry room closes at 9. Since I can not afford to move I just accept the inconvenience. She goes on and on about how wrong that is when it doesn't affect her at all.

How I wish 'Live and Let Live' could be easier

CM


#4

Her statements sound as though she gets all of her information from the regular mainstream TV channels, of course those are anti-Catholic and will tell only one side of the story. Her viewpoints are not very well formed, frankly, and I have found that there is little you can ever say to such a person to change their mind. It's really a case of "My mind's made up, so don't bother bringing any facts into the discussion!"

Was she justifying contraception and possibly abortion by saying it's impossible for a child to happy if it's mom is on welfare?? I hear that from the pro-abortion side - as if being poor is so awful that being ripped apart in the womb is better! Oh my gosh, and they really believe that too! Or they will defend it as though they do, although if they stopped to even consider what they are saying, they might shock themselves.

Well, if you can find someone else to ride with, I'll bet you would be happier. But pray for her. She sounds muddled and confused, and without the anchor of faith, it's not hard to get to that destination. I tend to pray that people like this have a crisis that drives them back to the foot of the cross of Jesus. I don't think that is uncharitable, do you? Lots of us turn to God in a much deeper and more fruitful way when we are in pain.

:shrug:


#5

[quote="cmscms, post:1, topic:229689"]

The long and short of it is, both of our minds were made up and we weren't going to budge. I just wished I never had this discussion.

[/quote]

I know that feeling. There are times I wish real life had a delete button, like we have online. :(

But what is done is done and can't be changed. Is it possible to avoid such topics in the future?. As you wrote, both your minds are made up and neither of you will budge, so further discussion will only lead to bad feelings. And those won't help either one of you.


#6

Hi CM (OP),

Believe me, I understand your predicament.

It made my head spin too!

:shamrock2:


#7

[quote="cmscms, post:3, topic:229689"]
Hi Faithfully,

Thanks for your reply and pointint out the other side of the coin. To be honest, I think I am most upset about how she started calling me naive and raising her voice rather than agree to disagree.

And I don't think it is so much the difference of religious belief half as much as she criticises everything to the last small detail. For example, I live in a condo and the laundry room closes at 9. Since I can not afford to move I just accept the inconvenience. She goes on and on about how wrong that is when it doesn't affect her at all.

How I wish 'Live and Let Live' could be easier

CM

[/quote]

I can't STAND it when people start in on that... You're so naive... oh what a nice fairy tale. It's RUDE!!!!!!

I think I'd be on the fence between you two....LOL! Like... Hey, she doesn't care if her washroom is closed at 9... Let it go... But if it were MY washroom...HEY... I HAVE WORK TO DO... Having lived in apt. I suspect that has to do with noise factor around certain apartments? And some people REALLY appreciate NOT having to listen to a loud spin cycle at 2 in the morning instead of sleeping... and so we all gotta figure it out... right???

Yeah, I get how some people just grate your nerves... Hang in there... You're saving $$ carpooling... and our natural resources!!!! ;)

As anyone in my family would say when we HAVE to deal with someon that nearly drives us to the brink... oh, I should say SHOUT with laughter ('cause we KNOW how hard the next 20 minutes or so will be)...

Give it up for your sins!!!!


#8

You’ll never know. She, on the other hand, might be in for a surprise.


#9

A pleasant update to the story. She called this afternoon to apologize. I forget the term she used but she did not like her behaviour and praised me for my determination of my faith !!!!!

I think deep down she wants to believe but so many hardships have driven her away. Perhaps she is simply struggling. She even said 'I just struggle after everything I have seen but wish I could have my faith back'. I told her I would pray for her struggle.

I also told her I had no hard feelings and told her I was glad she called.

I think in the future, I will just try to side step the conversation and perhaps focus on live and let live.

CM


#10

[quote="cmscms, post:9, topic:229689"]
A pleasant update to the story. She called this afternoon to apologize. I forget the term she used but she did not like her behaviour and praised me for my determination of my faith !!!!!

I think deep down she wants to believe but so many hardships have driven her away. Perhaps she is simply struggling. She even said 'I just struggle after everything I have seen but wish I could have my faith back'. I told her I would pray for her struggle.

I also told her I had no hard feelings and told her I was glad she called.

I think in the future, I will just try to side step the conversation and perhaps focus on live and let live.

CM

[/quote]

Wonderful news! She was upset and yelling because of her own status with her faith. And as she todl you she wishes she could have her faith back. Your response about praying for her was perfect. I am betting that she will begin to have a reawakening of her faith and will report any good news in that area to you. So, don't avoid the subject, but let her be the one to bring it up and then, let the Holy Spirit be your guide to continue to evangelize her. You rock!!


#11

[quote="Sherry_G, post:10, topic:229689"]
Wonderful news! She was upset and yelling because of her own status with her faith. And as she todl you she wishes she could have her faith back. Your response about praying for her was perfect. I am betting that she will begin to have a reawakening of her faith and will report any good news in that area to you. So, don't avoid the subject, but let her be the one to bring it up and then, let the Holy Spirit be your guide to continue to evangelize her. You rock!!

[/quote]

Absolutely! You dealt with that so gracefully!


#12

[quote="cmscms, post:9, topic:229689"]
A pleasant update to the story. She called this afternoon to apologize. I forget the term she used but she did not like her behaviour and praised me for my determination of my faith !!!!!

I think deep down she wants to believe but so many hardships have driven her away. Perhaps she is simply struggling. She even said 'I just struggle after everything I have seen but wish I could have my faith back'. I told her I would pray for her struggle.

I also told her I had no hard feelings and told her I was glad she called.

I think in the future, I will just try to side step the conversation and perhaps focus on live and let live.

CM

[/quote]

Did she tell you she needed to make an amends to you? You sound like you are familiar with 12-step programs - "live and let live" - but it sounds like she did need to apologize and make amends.

Very pleased that she examined her own part in the event and found it to be out of order. And that she wishes she could have her faith back.

Have you given her any information about the statistics of the abuse? such as that the number is no different from any other area of society like teachers, scout leaders, ministers, etc. And that the liberal revolution in the 1960s allowed a lot of homosexual pedophiliacs into seminaries in the first place. Of course that doesn't excuse the deviant acts nor the harm they caused, but point out to her that the bias of the press means Catholic priests are always the targets when the deviancy is throughout society even in their own groups. It might give her a different perspective. I don't have any links but it's not hard to find more information about this.


#13

[quote="cmscms, post:1, topic:229689"]
I just had an argument, and the only thing I now have is a headache.

I went out and a lady drove me home. The more I get to know this lady, the more I sense we are on different wavelenghts. I try not to judge and respect her opinion. After all, she drives me home for which I am very grateful. But sometimes I get annoyed with how she complains about silly things.

I also know, she is a Catholic who quit going to church when all the sex scandals came out. She told me herself she became disillusioned. I never quite understood how one could get disillusioned unless they never really had the gift of faith.

Well, tonight on the way home, she started complaining about all the Muslem (sp?) immigrants are being let into Canada and saying that in 10 years, women will no longer have any rights because of them. Well........ I did not like her complaining. I also took offense because I work with a few Muslems that are actully nice guys and I consider have gone from co-workers to friends. Just because we have different religious beliefs is no reason for me to not be their friend.

Well.... this lady kept saying that Muslems were going to put Canadian women back into the home. When I asked her how she though they would do that she replied 'They all have 14 kids when Canadians only have 2. Within a generation they will outnumber us'.

Well that was the last straw. I said 'If Catholics are going to choose to use contraceptives, then they don't have the right to complain if Muslems have 14 kids'. Well this just opened up a 2 hour discussion about papal infaillibility to contraceptive to everrthing.

The only conclusion I can make is when someone's mind is made up to reject the church teachings, there is no changing it and all I can do is pray to accept others.

Also, everytime I tried to say the Pope is only infaillable when he guides the teachings of the church and it doesn't change the fact that the Pope is a sinner and could turn around and sin, she told me I was naive and that I was disproving my whole argument. She just did not see it the way I do, which I am more than willing to accept, I just resent she was not willing to respect my opinion.

And then she started telling me 'What if you follow all the teachings of the church and when you die you find out there is no Heaven' Well, how can I argue with something that I believe fundamentally makes no sense???????? Then she started asking me where hell was. I don't care where hell is, all I care is making it to heaven.

Then she started telling me that children born to single mom's on assistance can not be happy. To which I kept saying 'I can not judge that and why criticize a child who had no control over where he was born' and that just made her mad at me.

The long and short of it is, both of our minds were made up and we weren't going to budge. I just wished I never had this discussion.

I am not even sure I know what I am looking for here. Any comments are appreciated

CM

[/quote]

just agree to disagree..you cant force somebody to change their beliefs..trying to will just aggravate them more...but you can and should pray for her to see the truth and for her o be converted..


#14

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.