ancestors of Mary


#1

Ok, so the Blessed Mother was sinless, what about her ancestors, were they sinless as well?


#2

No, her parents (Joachim & Ann) were not granted that grace.

According to many mystics. St. Joachim & St. Ann led very holy lives.


#3

[quote=villaneweva]Ok, so the Blessed Mother was sinless, what about her ancestors, were they sinless as well?
[/quote]

Nope!

SV


#4

hold on here… where in the Bible says that Mary was sinless?. Please show me it in the Bible.


#5

[quote=cornerstone]hold on here… where in the Bible says that Mary was sinless?. Please show me it in the Bible.
[/quote]

uhhh…ummmm…uhhhhh… I dunno…

looks in Bible…

uhhh…ummmm…uhhhhh… I dunno…


#6

[quote=cornerstone]hold on here… where in the Bible says that Mary was sinless?. Please show me it in the Bible.
[/quote]

Catholics believe that Mary was sinless.

see forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=4464

see forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=169

see forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=115

The sources quoted all have further sources to look at supporting what they say.

In addition, if you do a search in this forum for “Immaculate Conception” you will find many threads dealing with it.


#7

Which Bible, cornerstone?

There are LOTS of Bibles. And they come from many sources, many languages. The Bible was assembled from oral and later written tradition and first presented in the form still held in the Catholic Douay-Rheims and Revised Standard Edition- Catholic Edition somewhere in the 4th century A.D. (Jerome’s Vulgate is the first Latin edition which codified and assembled the works previously written in Hebrew, Greek, Koine Greek, Aramaic, and Latin, and including also the deuterocanonical books). Although there were many, many works which were written at the same TIMES, and indeed supposedly by the same PEOPLE (works of St. Peter, St. James, St. Paul etc.) which were NOT included in the Bible as the CATHOLIC FAITHFUL–the ONLY faithful of the time–under the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT had found to be “not divinely inspired.”

And during the same time period and somewhat after <4th-8th century A.D.> in addition to the CONTINUING oral tradition and to the deepening faith and understanding which God gave his followers (after all, how many people in THAT time would have understood current psychology, sociology, even quantum physics or math? But God provided for us, knowing that humanity would deepen their knowledge and understanding of ALL subjects–not just sciences and literature, but THEOLOGY as well), we came to a greater understanding of the role of Mary, MOTHER OF GOD-- and to how God had prepared her for the role He had predestined for her.

The word “Bible” is NOT in the Bible, you know. Neither is the word “Trinity”. In fact, the whole idea that ALL that is necessary to know of God is in, and ONLY in, the Bible is a fallacy. NOWHERE in the Bible (which was not even available to early Christians EXCEPT orally) is it stated that “THE BIBLE is the ONLY truth”. I believe that it is JESUS CHRIST who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no one comes to the FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH HIM. Not through “The Bible”, not through sola scriptora or sola fides, but THROUGH HIM. And since I believe in HIM, I believe in His CHURCH, and the teachings of that Church which HE HIMSELF gave us, to be better understood by the actions of the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, who was sent to us through the Father and the Son.

So saying, “where is THAT in the Bible” is just a red herring on your part. Obviously, you don’t believe that Mary was sinless. There’s a lot of teaching about Mary, but obviously you don’t believe that, either.

So, who DO you believe? You know that the Holy Spirit cannot be wrong. But there are lots and lots of people who say that the Spirit “said this” or “said that”–and contradict themselves all over the place. The Spirit says. . .that Sunday is the Lord’s day. No wait, it’s Saturday. The Spirit says that the only truth is in the Bible. . .but my church says this passage means that some people are predestined for hell. ANOTHER church says this passage doesn’t mean that at all. . .

Hmmm. There’s one place where the Holy Spirit has been for 2000 years. No contradictions. I wonder if you can guess WHERE that place is. . .


#8

that would be the church. see i guessed it right!
let me tell you that you are not the first catholic person that i run into that discredits the Bible. so the Holy Scriptures are not really important right?
well Jesus did not share your point of view there when he was tempted by the devil. he quoted Scripture.
now going back to where the Holy Spirit is. the Holy Spirit is on the church. the body of Christ. the believers. but the head of the church is Jesus. not the pope


#9

Cornerstone,

To go from the Catholic’s official position on Scripture to, “discrediting” Scripture is disingenuous. I debate Protestants all the time over at the Protest Warrior forum, and I see the same thing time and again. Part of it is the understandable “missing vocabulary” between Cats and Prots, but more often than not, it’s something more sinister.

If you stick around these parts, you’ll see sola scriptura brought up time and again. It’s something you should seriously reflect on. Catholics believe, as you, that Scripture is inspired and inerrant. To distort that once is a mistake. To continue to do so makes you guilty of bearing false witness.

The main dispute over Scripture between us is not whether we think it’s inspired and inerrant, but how we know that. The Catholic position can be found here and everywhere, and it hasn’t been left wanting. Protestants have yet to prove–from Scripture–why Scripture is the only authority for Christians.


#10

[quote=cornerstone]that would be the church. see i guessed it right!
let me tell you that you are not the first catholic person that i run into that discredits the Bible. so the Holy Scriptures are not really important right?
well Jesus did not share your point of view there when he was tempted by the devil. he quoted Scripture.
now going back to where the Holy Spirit is. the Holy Spirit is on the church. the body of Christ. the believers. but the head of the church is Jesus. not the pope
[/quote]

The Catholic Church does not teach Sola Scriptura, that everything we are to believe has come down to us only in written form from the Apostles in the Sacred Scriptures; the Church teaches, just like St. Paul taught, “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thes 2:15) The sinlessness of Mary is one of those unwritten traditions we are to hold to that came to us from the Apostles by word of mouth. Mary’s sinlessness, however, is supported in the Bible in Genesis 3:15 and Luke 1:28, 30, 42 and Revelation 12:1-17.


#11

[quote=[size=2] The sinlessness of Mary is one of those unwritten traditions we are to hold to that came to us from the Apostles by word of mouth. Mary’s sinlessness, however, is supported in the Bible in Genesis 3:15 and Luke 1:28, 30, 42 and Revelation 12:1-17.

[/quote]

NONE of the passages that you mention say that Mary was sinless.
the catholic church was never really interested on people reading the Bible. not too many years ago, as all of you know, the mass was given in latin. what benefit is listening to a sermon that is not on a language that you can understand? latin was not a language on the Bible. latin was not the language of the apostles. latin was already a dead language, why use it on the mass.why would Jesus warn about adding or taking out from the Scriptures if then other doctrines can be verbally added as we go? (Revelation 22:18-19)
why would the apostles warn about other gospels and then add other doctrines like purgatory? or
the answer is: they never did.

God does not share his glory.
Isaiah 42:8 says
"I am the LORD ; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another
or my praise to idols"


#12

Cornerstone, John was speaking about that particular revelation when he talked about not adding anything to this book. He didn’t even use the New Testament when he wrote that so how could he tell people not to add to it? Reason and faith walk together hand in hand my friend. I hope the Holy Spirit leads you in the direction of the true Church of Christ (The Catholic Church) :slight_smile:


#13

Cornerstone, I’ve been to the Latin Mass. The Gospel and the homily are in English. It wasn’t in Latin to keep Catholics in the dark but latin is the language of the Church and still is by the way. I have to say it is a beautiful service and is usually a packed house. I went to Catholic school from kindergarten through college and we statred the bible right in kindergarten.
Kathy


#14

nucatholic, you chose to comment in only a little part of my post.
i would like to hear your comment on the rest. the one speaking on revelation 22:18-19 was not John. It was Jesus.
i do thank your kindness wich is very hard to find among catholics specially when what they believe is challenged. i was a catholic for 25 years of my life. my entire family is still catholic.
sadly they too choose to believe what the catholic church says instead of what the Word of God says.
they too believe in purgatory. they believe on praying for the souls of people that are already dead. the intersession of Mary and the saints. this things are not in the Bible. no apostle ever taught about it.


#15

do you know why latin is the language of the catholic church?


#16

[quote=cornerstone]do you know why latin is the language of the catholic church?
[/quote]

For the same reason that it is the language of law and medicine today. Throughout the world.

“Pater Noster” meant “Our Father” 2000 years ago. It will still mean “Our Father” in another 2000 years, God willing we’re still here.

Latin is a “dead language” only in the sense that the words won’t/can’t change and develop new meanings.

Take a look at the King James Version of the bible:

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Divers places? Like, maybe…Grand Cayman Island?

Language changes over time.

How long ago was it that “a gay party” meant something totally different than today? Fifty years??? Forty???

Peace in Christ…Salmon


#17

[quote=cornerstone]do you know why latin is the language of the catholic church?
[/quote]

As the young faith grew and developed, there was only one constant in the known world: the Roman Empire. Anywhere Rome sat, men spoke latin. What better way to start as a missionary than with Latin. Then, the educated could start learning and then teaching the missionary the common tongue. As the faith grew, Latin became a unifying force, a common tongue for the universal church.

By the way, no Catholic has ever prayed for a dead person. Our God is the God of the living, not the dead (Matthew 12:26-27)


#18

[quote=cornerstone]NONE of the passages that you mention say that Mary was sinless.
the catholic church was never really interested on people reading the Bible. not too many years ago, as all of you know, the mass was given in latin. what benefit is listening to a sermon that is not on a language that you can understand? latin was not a language on the Bible. latin was not the language of the apostles. latin was already a dead language, why use it on the mass.why would Jesus warn about adding or taking out from the Scriptures if then other doctrines can be verbally added as we go? (Revelation 22:18-19)
why would the apostles warn about other gospels and then add other doctrines like purgatory? or
the answer is: they never did.

God does not share his glory.
Isaiah 42:8 says
"I am the LORD ; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another
or my praise to idols"
[/quote]

If you want to discuss the sinless nature of Mary, let us know, but that should be the only topic we discuss.


#19

this is a dictionary definition of dead language
dead language = a language that is no longer learned as a native language


#20

[quote=ralphinal]If you want to discuss the sinless nature of Mary, let us know, but that should be the only topic we discuss.
[/quote]

i would love to discuss it. lets get our Bibles and find it


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