And the Gates of Hell will not Prevail Against it


#1

I am sure this will be heavily attacked. But who said “how” God was going to keep his church from succumbing to the gates of hell? Perhaps in ensuring the gates of Hell not prevail against his “church”, he sanctioned the Reformation.

I see no where in the Bible that says “how” he will do it or “when” he would do it…it could have been years after heretical views infiltrated the “church”.

Thought just occurred to me.


#2

If what you are suggesting is true, then the Bible is wrong because the gates of hell would have been prevailing for centuries. If the Church is wrong, then how could people be saved? Nobody could read and the few who could were reading the “heretical” deuterocanon that contains such “blasphemies” as praying for the dead.

Christ tells us he will be with us until the end of the age (not sure what verse). I’m pretty sure he doesn’t mean off and on. Ultimately I think we should go with what the Early Church taught and believed.


#3

I can see where you are coming from on this. It’s an interesting approach. With the way the church was going when the reformation happened and the ‘people’ who were in charge at the time maybe God decided there had to be a change. Like I said, it’s an interesting idea and I am looking forward to seeing the results of your question… but yes, I do think that you are going to get FLAMED for this… mentioning that the reformation may have been a good thing doesn’t go over to well around here… :wink:


#4

[quote=Cath.orProtes.?]Perhaps in ensuring the gates of Hell not prevail against his “church”, he sanctioned the Reformation.
[/quote]

Here’s a quote of Martin Luther’s that I was reminded of:

“I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity. . . . That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St, Peter and St. Paul, forty-six Popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome Hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the Roman church with special favor. Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. **On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better. **We must not separate from God on account of any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account of the multitude of the ungodly. There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body. For love can do all things, and nothing is difficult to those who are united.”

Two thoughts: 1)perhaps God sanctioned the Reformation to allow for the Counter-Reformation, and 2) How does God prevent hell from prevailing over the Church by destroying the Church? The Church is hierarchical (see Eph 4:11 among others). Also take a look at Mat 7:24-27 to get a glimpse at what happens to those who put their faith in Peter (the rock) vs those who don’t.


#5

I personally don’t think God would of cause the reformation just to reform the Catholic Church. I don’t think God would of wanted Christianity split in 30000+ denominations squabbling among each other all claiming to be right.

I think the Catholic Church reform was how God brought good out of the Protestant Reformation. He can make good out of anything. But I personally think had sin/the devil not twisted Luther’s thoughts God would of brought the Catholic Church reform in a better way.

Besides, ever read Luther’s writings? He sure does spit a lot of venom and hatred for the “papists” in some of them. So much for humility and a good Christian attitude.

God already used someone 1500 years before Luther came along to start his Church - his Son, Jesus Christ.

Adam


#6

Just my two cents…another sense of the phrase “the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it…” is that of the Gates of Hell not being able to stand against the Church of Jesus Christ. In other words, there is an “offensive” meaning to this phrase in addition to the “defensive” meaning that seems to be more commonly understood.

Peace,
EA


#7

[quote=Aaron I.]Here’s a quote of Martin Luther’s that I was reminded of:

Two thoughts: 1)perhaps God sanctioned the Reformation to allow for the Counter-Reformation, and 2) How does God prevent hell from prevailing over the Church by destroying the Church? The Church is hierarchical (see Eph 4:11 among others). Also take a look at Mat 7:24-27 to get a glimpse at what happens to those who put their faith in Peter (the rock) vs those who don’t.
[/quote]

I do not see Eph. 4:11 as proving the church is hierarchical. Peter is one member of the church. He is not “the church”.


#8

[quote=Aaron I.]If what you are suggesting is true, then the Bible is wrong because the gates of hell would have been prevailing for centuries. If the Church is wrong, then how could people be saved? Nobody could read and the few who could were reading the “heretical” deuterocanon that contains such “blasphemies” as praying for the dead.

Christ tells us he will be with us until the end of the age (not sure what verse). I’m pretty sure he doesn’t mean off and on. Ultimately I think we should go with what the Early Church taught and believed.
[/quote]

One entry found for prevail.
Main Entry: pre·vail
Pronunciation: pri-'vA(&)l
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin praevalEre, from prae- pre- + valEre to be strong – more at WIELD
1 : to gain ascendancy through strength or superiority : TRIUMPH

“prevail” could refer to an end result…being that the gates of Hell would not be “triumphant”.


#9

[quote=Unfinished]I personally don’t think God would of cause the reformation just to reform the Catholic Church. I don’t think God would of wanted Christianity split in 30000+ denominations squabbling among each other all claiming to be right.
[/quote]

Eastern Rites & autonomous Churches:

* Alexandrian Rite
      o Coptic Catholic Church (Egypt)
      o Ethiopic Catholic Church (Ethiopia, Eritrea)
* Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) Rite
      o Syro-Malankara Catholic Church (India)
      o Maronite Church (Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Argentina, Brazil, USA, Australia, Canada, Mexico)
      o Syrian Catholic Church (Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palestine, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, United States and Canada, Venezuela)
* Armenian Rite:
      o Armenian Catholic Church (Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Palestine, Ukraine, France, Greece, Latin America, Argentina, Romania, United States and Canada, Eastern Europe)
* Chaldaean or East-Syrian Rite:
      o Chaldean Catholic Church (Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, United States of America)
      o Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (India, United States of America)
* Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) Rite:
      o Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church (Albania)
      o Belarusian Byzantine Catholic Church (Belarus)
      o Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church (Bulgaria)
      o Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci (Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro)
      o Greek Byzantine Catholic Church (Greece, Turkey)
      o Greek-Catholic Melkite Church (Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Jerusalem, Brazil, USA, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt and Sudan, Kuwait, Australia, Venezuela, Argentina)
      o Hungarian Byzantine Catholic Church (Hungary)
      o Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (Italy)
      o Macedonian Byzantine Catholic Church (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia)
      o Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic (Romania, United States of America)
      o Russian Byzantine Catholic Church (Russia, China)
      o Ruthenian Catholic Church (United States of America, Ukraine, Czech Republic)
      o Slovak Greek Catholic Church (Slovak Republic, Canada)
      o Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (Ukraine, Poland, USA, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and Scandinavia, France, Brazil, Argentina)

Roman Catholic Church

* Latin Rite

Catholic churches closely related to, but not accepting the primacy of the Roman Pontiff

  • American Catholic Church in the United States
  • Ancient Apostolic Communion
  • Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church
  • Catholic Apostolic National Church
  • Catholic Apostolic Church
  • Catholic Apostolic Church in North America (CACINA)
  • Catholic Life Church
  • Celtic Catholic Church
  • Charismatic Episcopal Church
  • Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association
  • Christ Catholic Church
  • Free Catholic Church
  • Liberal Catholic Church
  • Mariavite Church
  • North American Old Catholic Church
  • Old Catholic Church
  • Palmarian Catholic Church
  • Philippine Independent Church
  • Polish National Catholic Church
  • Sedevacantism
  • true Catholic Church

Plus, if you take all the disgruntle members - who are not “Catholic” in belief, just in name - you might have 30,000 as well.


#10

Cath.orProtes.?

But those eastern rite churches are in full communion with Rome, put it differently, they are part of the Catholic Church.

As to the other churches, may I just remind you that there is only ONE Catholic Church. Once they have broken off with Rome, they can call themselves whatever they want.

There are actually at least 22,000+ Protestant denominations (from memory), but the source that i relied upon was dated quite sometimes (and I will provide the reference upon request, sorry I am currently in overseas). So, personally, it is not impossible that there are 30,000 Protestant denominations…

I note the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15). But then again, many Protestants will have difficutly in accepting this.

Francis


#11

[quote=Unfinished]I personally don’t think God would of cause the reformation just to reform the Catholic Church. I don’t think God would of wanted Christianity split in 30000+ denominations squabbling among each other all claiming to be right.
[/quote]

I always smile when I see this argument… again and AGAIN. :slight_smile: My answer is simply this… I don’t think that God wanted church leaders to molest children either. Or kill people of different opinions in His Holy Name. A lot of things have happened that God wouldn’t have wanted but because we are human even the most evil and vile things happen. That is why, to me, it makes sense that the Holy Church of God is the UNIVERSAL Church made up of HIS people who desire to follow HIM and HIM only. :thumbsup:


#12

[quote=Singinbeauty]I always smile when I see this argument… again and AGAIN. :slight_smile: My answer is simply this… I don’t think that God wanted church leaders to molest children either. Or kill people of different opinions in His Holy Name. A lot of things have happened that God wouldn’t have wanted but because we are human even the most evil and vile things happen. That is why, to me, it makes sense that the Holy Church of God is the UNIVERSAL Church made up of HIS people who desire to follow HIM and HIM only. :thumbsup:
[/quote]

The Catholic Church is the universal church. What do you think the word catholic means??
The Catholic Church is the one true church which is the Deposit of Faith. It is the Church founded by Christ through Peter.
The different opinions are not within our church but the thousands of Protestant churches who all claim they have the correct interpretation of scripture. They are wrong and the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals is infallible which can be proven by Scared Scripture and Apostolic Tradition.


#13

[quote=thistle]The Catholic Church is the universal church. What do you think the word catholic means??
The Catholic Church is the one true church which is the Deposit of Faith. It is the Church founded by Christ through Peter.
The different opinions are not within our church but the thousands of Protestant churches who all claim they have the correct interpretation of scripture. They are wrong and the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals is infallible which can be proven by Scared Scripture and Apostolic Tradition.
[/quote]

What a surprise, a protestant playing the pedophile card. I just thank God that protestant churches are free from pedophilia, after all, I’ve never heard of a protestant “pastor” abusing children.


#14

[quote=Cath.orProtes.?]I am sure this will be heavily attacked. But who said “how” God was going to keep his church from succumbing to the gates of hell? Perhaps in ensuring the gates of Hell not prevail against his “church”, he sanctioned the Reformation.

[/quote]

Gates are purely defensive. This verse is saying that Hell will not be able to hold out against the Church. Christ won the victory on the cross. The Church will eventually fully establish that victory and Satan and his hordes will be cast down to Hell.

As to the Reformation, Satan has been endlessly trying to destroy the Church. He does this by three main tactics - (internal) corruption, division and external attack. The Reformation was yet another one of a series of Satan’s skirmishes against the Church to divide it. Having hived off a lump he then proceeds to divide that lump off into more and more pieces.

God allows this. After all Satan is the Prince of this World and has rights and power. And we have free will to listen to him or not.


#15

Oops sorry thistle, I meant to quote Singinbeauty on post #13


#16

[quote=levi86]Oops sorry thistle, I meant to quote Singinbeauty on post #13
[/quote]

No problem.


#17

[quote=levi86]What a surprise, a protestant playing the pedophile card. I just thank God that protestant churches are free from pedophilia, after all, I’ve never heard of a protestant “pastor” abusing children.
[/quote]

I hope this statement is a joke or do you not read the news papers
( I’ve never heard of a protestant “pastor” abusing children.)


#18

[quote=Will Pick]I hope this statement is a joke or do you not read the news papers
( I’ve never heard of a protestant “pastor” abusing children.)
[/quote]

I think he was being sarcastic :stuck_out_tongue:


#19

[quote=Cath.orProtes.?]I am sure this will be heavily attacked. But who said “how” God was going to keep his church from succumbing to the gates of hell? Perhaps in ensuring the gates of Hell not prevail against his “church”, he sanctioned the Reformation.

I see no where in the Bible that says “how” he will do it or “when” he would do it…it could have been years after heretical views infiltrated the “church”.

Thought just occurred to me.
[/quote]

Do you feel it is possible that God decided to reform the Catholic church by disunity, mass murder, and a multitude of jumbled “private interpretation” doctrines?

I have said it before and I will say it again. The so-called reformation reformed nothing! It was rebellion by some who used looting the church under the disguise of religious freedom as a means of becoming incredibly wealthy overnight.

The church reformed from within. The Protestant reformation was the single greatest victory by Satan over humanity since the temptation of Eve.

Thal59


#20

[quote=Aaron I.]Here’s a quote of Martin Luther’s that I was reminded of:

Two thoughts: 1)perhaps God sanctioned the Reformation to allow for the Counter-Reformation, and 2) How does God prevent hell from prevailing over the Church by destroying the Church? The Church is hierarchical (see Eph 4:11 among others). Also take a look at Mat 7:24-27 to get a glimpse at what happens to those who put their faith in Peter (the rock) vs those who don’t.
[/quote]

Here is what I always thought of Martin Luther’s approach as well as the approach taken by reformers today:
When my house is dirty, I do not abandon it and build a new one on the lot next door. I fix the one I already have. Martin Luther may have been the forerunner of the modern American consumer. :smiley:


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