Angels redeemed?


#1

I read an article in This Rock, and it was about why God made the world as it is. I think the main point was about why God had to suffer on the cross. One of the points was that we couldn’t just be made spiritual beings in heaven already without knowing how much God loves us ie the Incarnation and Crucifixtion. The author said that we would always be wondering how much God loves us without Him actually having shown us. We would say that he created us but didn’t have to sacrifice anything, so how are we supposed to know how much He loves us. But I was like, what about the angels? They are spiritual beings who were never redeemed…unless they were redeemed by Jesus as well. Which they weren’t since they were already in heaven. So I guess my question is, how come we couldn’t all be made as angels? Then we wouldn’t have to have all this physical/ignorant suffering stuff. I assume all the angels aren’t flying around in heaven asking themselves and each other, how much does God really love us? How come he doesn’t show us? etc. They’re all fine notwithstanding the whole Satan’s rebellion thing.


#2

Hi Oren,

St. Thomas Aquinas states that angels, as originally created, understand God intuitively. Therefore they know his love that way. We understand God through his creatures, which is a more indirect and less reliable process. It was therfore fitting that God should become man so that we might identify with Him and understand his divine love by seeing his human love for us.

As for comparing our state with that ot the angels, we must remember that the angels were submitted to a test and that some failed. Humanity was also submitted to a test and failed

There is a huge difference however. We have a chance at redemption, and angels don’t.

Verbum


#3

[quote=Oren]I . But I was like, what about the angels? They are spiritual beings who were never redeemed…unless they were redeemed by Jesus as well. Which they weren’t since they were already in heaven. .
[/quote]

Jesus saving action redeemed all creation, including the angels.


#4

Did the angels need redemption that did not sin or fall away from God???


#5

[quote=Oren]We would say that he created us but didn’t have to sacrifice anything, so how are we supposed to know how much He loves us. But I was like, what about the angels? They are spiritual beings who were never redeemed…unless they were redeemed by Jesus as well. Which they weren’t since they were already in heaven. So I guess my question is, how come we couldn’t all be made as angels? Then we wouldn’t have to have all this physical/ignorant suffering stuff. I assume all the angels aren’t flying around in heaven asking themselves and each other, how much does God really love us? How come he doesn’t show us? etc. They’re all fine notwithstanding the whole Satan’s rebellion thing.
[/quote]

The angels are always in the presence of God. So they are always in the bliss. It’s impossible for them to fall again. They were created to bring glory to God. So their essence is really to adore the Creator and help man come to know his Creator. The salvation of man is a continuation from the trial of the angels, before man had come to existence. So you could say everything is connected. They are spiritual beings; they don’t wonder like we do. Hope this helps.
:slight_smile:


#6

[quote=puzzleannie]Jesus saving action redeemed all creation, including the angels.
[/quote]

Interesting, because up to this thread, I hadn’t given the topic much thought. What is the source of your statement?

Thanks,
Jim


#7

I think annie is right but I think it’s also true that humanity was redeemed in a sense in which the angels were not. I’ve read about this in a theological writing but I don’t remember much about it – sorry Lt.


#8

the saving action of Jesus redeemed all of creation, not just mankind, this includes angels, planets, stars, bugs, trees, bunnies, etc. The angels already faced their test (it was pass/fail) so the fallen angels cannot have a second chance, so the angels in heaven do not need redemption from sin, but they are affected by the sin of mankind, as is all of creation, so in that sense in need of redemption. The planets, bunnies, bugs etc. have not sinned and were not given a test since they are do not have intellects with which to choose against God, but nevertheless are affected by the disorder that entered the universe through the sin of Adam and Eve and therefore are also in need of redemption. Redemption is not really the right word, in the sense of a slave being redeemed, but all of creation needs saving from the effects of sin and evil.


#9

How are the angels affecting by human sin to the point to where they need “redemption”??? Or are you saying that in ways the “redemption” is akin to Mary who was sinless yet needed her Son to die on the Cross for her own sake??? Thanks and God Bless.


#10

[quote=slinky1882]How are the angels affecting by human sin to the point to where they need “redemption”??? Or are you saying that in ways the “redemption” is akin to Mary who was sinless yet needed her Son to die on the Cross for her own sake??? Thanks and God Bless.
[/quote]

Jesus didn’t have to die for Mary. Mary was sinless to begin with.
Jesus went all the way up to the Cross to redeem man, bring him back to God.
Other than that, I don’t know what you are asking.


#11

This is a very interesting discussion!

Slinky – when you say that Mary needed her son to die for “her own sake” do you mean in order to redeem her? I think that this is known as “anticipatory redemption”, or the fact that the graces of redeption through Christ’s sacrifice were applied in an anticiptory way to Mary – therefore she was conceived without sin.

Puzzleannie – you are obviously on to something here, but I think you are right to say that “redeption” may not be the most accurate word when applied to the angels. I’m not sure if we can understand the mystery of exactly HOW the redeeming sacrifice of Christ “affects” the angels. I would like to find out more, however. I’ve been searching through Thomas for any leads. . .

Here is an interesting quote from Cardinal Arinze:

[font=Times New Roman]One dimension of the Holy Eucharist that should not escape our attention is that Jesus associates with Himself not only all humanity but also all creation, and offers all to His Eternal Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit.

The Son of God became man “to gather together into one the scattered children of God” (Jn 11:52). By the paschal mystery of His passion, death and resurrection He redeemed humanity.

But the work of redemption goes beyond human beings in its effects and involves all creation. Original sin had turned many created things against man. And man was not always honoring God with them, as he should. The whole creation has been awaiting its own redemption, “groaning in labor pains”, as St. Paul puts it (Rm 8:22). “The whole creation is waiting with eagerness for the children of God to be revealed” (Rm 8:19).

Pope John Paul II testifies that as he in his ministry as priest, Bishop and Pope has celebrated the Holy Eucharist in chapels, parish churches, basilicas, lakeshores, seacoasts, public squares and stadiums, he has experienced the Eucharist as always in some way celebrated on the altar of the world. The Eucharist embraces and permeates all creation. “The Son of God became man in order to restore all creation, in one supreme act of praise, to the One who made it from nothing. He, the Eternal High Priest who by the blood of His Cross entered the eternal sanctuary, thus gives back to the Creator and Father all creation redeemed” (Eccl. De Euch., 8).

St. Paul already told the Colossians that the Incarnate Word is the first-born of all creation and that “God wanted all fullness to be found in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Him, everything in heaven and everything on earth, by making peace through His death on the cross” (Col 1:15, 19-20).

And the second Christmas preface says of Christ: “He has come to lift up all things to Himself, to restore unity to creation, and to lead mankind from exile into your (the Father’s) heavenly kingdom” (Roman Missal).

Christ entrusts the celebration of this Eucharistic sacrifice, with its cosmic dimension, to His Church. At Mass therefore humanity, associating with it all creation, offers the supreme act of adoration, praise and thanksgiving, through Christ, with Christ and in Christ to the Eternal Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit.

see adoremus.org/Arinze-EuchUnites.html

[/font]


#12

[quote=slinky1882]Did the angels need redemption that did not sin or fall away from God???
[/quote]

I told you angels are spiritual beings. They don’t need redemption. Redemption is for the world. So ones who are born of the world, the redemption is entitled for.


#13

[quote=Lovez4God]Jesus didn’t have to die for Mary. Mary was sinless to begin with.
Jesus went all the way up to the Cross to redeem man, bring him back to God.
Other than that, I don’t know what you are asking.
[/quote]

Mary was conceived free from the effects of original sin because of the merits of Jesus’ saving action. Yes she did need redemption, but because of God’s grace and to fulfill His plan perfectly, benefited from that redemptive action from the first moment of her conception.


#14

I think we’re talking about two very different kinds of redemption here. The Universe, and possibly Angels, suffer for Man’s Fall, and they benefit from Man’s Redemption, but they are not themselves Redeemed in the sense that they are made worthy of God again. Personal redemption is actually impossible for Angels that Fall; it’s a benefit and testament to our greatness as God’s creations that we have the possibility of true redemption.


#15

[quote=slinky1882]How are the angels affecting by human sin to the point to where they need “redemption”??? Or are you saying that in ways the “redemption” is akin to Mary who was sinless yet needed her Son to die on the Cross for her own sake??? Thanks and God Bless.
[/quote]

yes I was going to make the analogy between Mary and the angels because both questions make the mistake of limiting Christ’s redemptive act to a particular moment in history, and do not allow for his existence and therefore the effects of his redemptive action working independent of time. Mary was born sinless into a sinful world so in that sense was also in need of redemption or preservation or “innoculation” or whatever word works, from those sinful effects. She personally was preserved free from sin at the moment of her conception by virtue of the graces of Jesus’ redemptive action, not on her own merits or by any other virtue. The good angels already enjoy God’s presence by virtue of “passing the test” but nonetheless, like all creation groan under the weight of sin, because as their mission to mankind attests, they are aware of the effects of sin.


#16

[quote=puzzleannie]Mary was conceived free from the effects of original sin because of the merits of Jesus’ saving action. Yes she did need redemption, but because of God’s grace and to fulfill His plan perfectly, benefited from that redemptive action from the first moment of her conception.
[/quote]

I agree only on the fact, everything was brought to completion.
Satan and his angels fell for the reason of not accepting Mary’s dignity above them. This was before man’s fall. So this was also known before hand.


#17

One could say she was part of the redemption act. Afterall, she was the Mother of God.


#18

Hi Lovez4God,

Jesus didn’t have to die for Mary. Mary was sinless to begin with.

Sorry, but this is more than somewhat… heretical.:slight_smile:

Here from Ineffabilis Deus, which defined the Immaculate Conception:

We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful

In other words, God applied the merits earned by Jesus’ passion to Mary before Jesus actually was born. To God, everything is in the present.

Verbum


#19

[quote=Verbum Caro]This is a very interesting discussion!

Slinky – when you say that Mary needed her son to die for “her own sake” do you mean in order to redeem her? I think that this is known as “anticipatory redemption”, or the fact that the graces of redeption through Christ’s sacrifice were applied in an anticiptory way to Mary – therefore she was conceived without sin.

[/quote]

Yes, I meant that the Sacrafice of the Cross enabled the Immaculate Conception through a singular Grace. Thank you all for your clarification. :slight_smile: ( and sorry, it took me a few days to find this thread again). Thanks and God Bless.


#20

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