PARIS (Reuters) - The spiritual leader of the world’s 77 million Anglicans has said conservative Christians who cite the Bible to condemn homosexuality are misreading a key passage written by Saint Paul almost 2,000 years ago.
Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, addressing theology students in Toronto, said an oft-quoted passage in Paul’s Epistle to the Romans meant to warn Christians not to be self-righteous when they see others fall into sin.
His comments were an unusually open rebuff to conservative bishops, many of them from Africa, who have been citing the Bible to demand that pro-gay Anglican majorities in the United States and Canada be reined in or forced out of the Communion.
“Many current ways of reading miss the actual direction of the passage,” Williams said on Monday, according to a text of his speech posted on the Anglican Church of Canada’s Web site.
“Paul is making a primary point not about homosexuality but about the delusions of the supposedly law-abiding.”
I agree with him. I actually do not feel the bible is sufficient in determining the morality surrounding homosexuality because the authors were not responsing to the same context in which Christians are responding to today- and the difference in contexts in this case is wide enough that I personally feel its worth re-evaluating.
Its taken me an unusually long time…but I finally found a sane person on this website
Another thing people miss is that the bible has been translated and manipulated many times. Also I believe if I shared my honest to god no punches pulled opinion of the bible…well most of the users here would try to burn me.
No, we don’t do that anymore.:rolleyes:
However, we do often wonder why a self-proclaimed agnostic would come to a Catholic forum and be surprised to find folks who uphold the Catholic teaching, especially when they are clearly not interested in open minded discussion.
He obviously never interpreted this book in the Bible did he?.
1And there came two angels to Sodom at evening, and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom. And Lot, seeing them, rose up to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2and he said, “Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early and go on your ways.” And they said, “Nay, but we will remain in the street all night.”
3And he pressed upon them greatly, and they turned in unto him and entered into his house; and he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom – both young and old, all the people from every quarter --compassed the house around.
5And they called unto Lot and said unto him, “Where are the men who came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them.”
6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him
7and said, "I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8Behold now, I have two daughters who have not known a man. Let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes. Only unto these men do nothing, for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof."
9And they said, “Stand back.” And they said again, “This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will become a judge! Now will we deal worse with thee than with them.” And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10But the men put forth their hands, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut the door.
11And they smote the men who were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12And the men said unto Lot, "Hast thou here any besides? Soninlaw, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whomsoever thou hast in the city – bring them out of this place.
13For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them has waxed great before the face of the LORD, and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it." "
" 13For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them has waxed great before the face of the LORD, and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it."
14And Lot went out and spoke unto his sons-in-law, who married his daughters, and said, “Up, get ye out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city!” But he seemed as one who mocked unto his sons-in-law.
15And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, “Arise, take thy wife and thy two daughters who are here, lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.”
16And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife and upon the hand of his two daughters, the LORD being merciful unto him; and they brought him forth and set him outside the city.
17And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth outside, that he said, “Escape for thy life! Look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain. Escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed!”
18And Lot said unto them, "Oh, not so, my lord.
19Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shown unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die.
20Behold now, this city is near enough to flee unto, and it is a little one. Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live."
21And he said unto him, "See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city for which thou hast spoken.
22Hasten thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou hast come thither." Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire, from the LORD out of heaven;
25and He overthrew those cities, and all the plain and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground."
Please, don’t deny us your enlightened opinions.
I’m sure they’re completely original and haven’t been expressed by numerous agnostics and athiest here a gazillion times already.
By the way, don’t worry about being burnt, we quit doing that hundreds of years ago, we now have albino monks that do our dirty work.
The bigger issue here than the sexual desires was that the people of the city were breaching the sacred laws of hospitality by seeking to harm and abuse strangers in their city. The message of the men of the city was certainly not “give us the men in your house so that we can form lifelong consensual committed loving monogamous relationships with them” any more than Lot believed he would be offering up his daughters to loving marriages by giving them to the mob. This, like any form of rape, is not about sex, it is about power and abuse, seeking to harm and humiliate.
21 "Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.
"Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt.
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
22 You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.’ "
Deut. 10: 17-19
17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. 18 He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. 19 And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt.
Deut. 24: 17
17 Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge.
19 "Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow."
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
Deutoronomy, in particular, classes the alien with the widow and the fatherless in many verses as one to be protected and special efforts to be made to ensure fair and compassionate treatment.
(interestingly enough, Deut 27 lists curses for various sorts of prohibited behavior, the above among them, including sexual,—sex with animals, father’s wife, one’s sister, one’s mother-in-law are specifically prohibited but that’s it for the sexual angle.)
What do you think of Lot offering his virgin daughters to the mob…good moral compas there!
The story of Sodom isn’t about same sex relations…it’s about rape…it has no more to do with condemning gay relationships than the incestuous relationship in the next chapter between Lot and his daughters has to do with condemning marriage.
The story is about the violence of a city. It has to do with rape and power…it has more to do with the goings on in a prison between violent inmates who wish to show their dominace over weaker inmates through sexual power and rape than it does with any same sex loving relationship…the story is repeated in Joshua with a few twists and turns of its own.
Ezekiel is a good source as to what the true sin of Sodom is…for anyone who cares to read past Genesis.
Ha ha I thought I would get a few people frustrated with that comment let me explain.
Not frustrated at all. More like :rolleyes:
I came here for two main reasons.
To try to see why I was ever illogic enough to be Catholic (use to be catholic and I was just as faithful as most of you however I was younger and didn’t think for myself)
To see the Catholic stand point on my bisexuality (just recently came out of closet to everyone but parents)
btw I’m not going to get into a huge argument since I’m typing this on my ps3
I see. So now that you have been “enlightened” you want to know what Catholic’s think about your lifestyle? Why would you care? If you are really interested in the Catholic position, you can search these forums for answers on this topic. There are countless (and I mean countless) threads on this topic.
Yes indeed. ‘to know’ occurs about 800 time in the bible and only once does it refer to hoosex, if we believe that interpretation. Notice, by the way, all the women and children died too. Notice, by the way, that Lot offered WOMEN to the crown (not a Lot of point, if they are all homosexual).
Isaiah 3.8,9 “For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judas is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory. The show of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.”
Not specified sin, rhetorical. Cant b used.
Jeremiah 23.14 “I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.”
No mention of hoomosexuality…adultery yes, lies, yes. Not homosex.
Eze. 16.49, 50 “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.”
Lets see…pride, idleness, lack or cahrity, haughty…And the ‘abominations’ are not specified. Can’t use tha.
Luke 17.26 - 29 “And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built. But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.”
Nope, no mention of homosexuality there.
Jude 1.4, 7, 8 “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.”
Better, but not brilliant. lasciviousness, isnt homosexuality specific, denying the only Lord God—idolotry a great abomination (ahhhh, a previous verse makes sense). fornication…not homosexual specific, ‘and going after strange flesh’, might mean homosexuality, but might mean ‘interested in angels’ or might be about coveting a neighbours ***.
And they say bad things.
Hmmm, interesting, and it certainly doesnt support an anti-gay stance.
But nothing that explicitly say homosexuality.
By the way, I always thought angels were asexual. Why assume they were men?
Williams is fooling himself if he thinks for a minute than any old testament figure or any father of the early church would have approved of homosexuality! I’m sure it makes him feel better to imagine that there were ‘church liberals’ during the first century, but there weren’t. Acceptance of homosexuality is a purely modern, secular invention which is being foisted on the church. They’re trying to transform Christ into some kind of ancient hippy, who was ‘cool’ with everything.
The reality is that it’s ludicrous to imagine even for a second that the real, historical Jesus Christ would have hesitated in condemning homosexuality! If Jesus were walking around on earth today, Williams and his ilk would be the first to condemn him as a ‘conservative neanderthal’ and a ‘moralist’.
Lev. 18:22 You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman; it is a detestable act.
Lev. 20:13 If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.
How can those two verses be misread?:rolleyes: People who want to carry on the homosexual sin, while claiming to be servants of God will always invent “arguments” to justify their actions.
(2. Tim. 4:3 - 4) For there will be a time when people will not tolerate sound teaching. Instead, following their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves, because they have an insatiable curiosity to hear new things. And they will turn away from hearing the truth, but on the other hand they will turn aside to myths.
I think the essential problem here is that, as we examine the bible, we can see that it doesn’t really understand homosexuality. It sees homosexual acts, more or less, as the deviancy of “heterosexual” persons who are engaging in same-sex relations solely for excessive pleasure.
There’s no idea of homosexuality as a sexuality in the bible. It more or less paints a picture of married men, or men who will get married, having sexual relations with men on the side. This is obvious in in the story of Sodom and Gomhorra where Lot offers his daughters in the stead of the two guests. Why would he do that if they are homosexuals? This is a city where people just have rampant, lust driven sex with anyone. These are married men who want to take advantage of people.
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