Anglicans to Rome - Thread 3

##As thread 2 is down :frowning: - on to thread 3 :slight_smile: (if anyone is interested - though why it was closed down, when some threads are faaar longer, who knows ?)

**
[quote="
[/quote]

Subrosa"] **Re: Anglicans to Rome - Thread 2 **
Another link concerning married Anglican ministers converting to catholicism…

http://www.ncregister.com/current/0206lead2.htm

****]

## From the article:

"In England, we have the largest concentration of married Catholic priests outside the Eastern Catholic churches. This is because of the large influx of Anglican clergy after the Church of England’s decision to ordain women just over 10 years ago.

For complicated reasons, no one can be sure just what the numbers of clergy converts from the Church of England were, but conservative estimates put the numbers at about 700 over 10 years. Nearly 500 of them have been ordained as Catholic priests; about 200 of those were married men."

## I didn’t know the numbers were that high - I can’t see it being a precedent for a relaxation, though. ##**

A Note on APOSTOLICAE CURAE sent me by an Anglo-Catholic Priest. This is from a Catholic Priest:

APOSTOLICAE CURAE and the ‘SPIRIT’ of ST. LOUIS
New Opportunities Afford a New Approach to an Old Controversy

*The origin of the Church is not the decision of men; she is not the product of human willing but a creature of the Spirit of God. This Spirit overcomes the Babylonian world spirit. Man’s will to power, symbolized in Babel, aims at the goal of uniformity, because its interest is domination and subjection; it is precisely in this way that it brings forth hatred and division. God’s Spirit, on the other hand, is love; for this reason He brings about recognition and creates unity in the acceptance of the otherness of the other: the many languages are mutually comprehensible.

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Called to Communion (Ignatius), p. 43

Does Apostolicae Curae really oblige a Roman Catholic to maintain, then, that the Edwardine Ordinal contains forms for the conferral of Holy Order which are in themselves defective or invalid? Not at all. Must a Roman Catholic ignore, or worse, quibble over those forms which we find in ancient records like the Apostolic Constitutions and the Gelasian Sacramentary? Certainly not. Here then is the key to understanding Leo’s objection to the Edwardine Ordinal: to wit, the Ordinal was composed by Reformers who openly rejected the Catholic doctrine of the sacerdotium – and it was used over and against the Catholic Pontificals then in existence, which were in turn utterly suppressed. Moreover, it was no secret that the Ordinal drew substantially from a Continental Protestant model supplied by the Lutheran divine, Martin Bucer (9). In the immediate circumstances of the English Reformation, therefore, the purposed excising of any reference to priesthood, sacrifice and oblation from the Ordinal assigned to it a “native character and spirit” (nativa indoles ac spiritus) which Rome could only interpret as anti-Catholic. As the Church of England would then persevere in her Reformed doctrines, and indeed would suppress the liturgical expressions of her more Catholic-minded priests even up to the pontificate of Leo XIII himself, the latter would have had no ground whatsoever to suddenly overturn the consistent practice of the Roman Church and acknowledge the objective validity of the Edwardine Ordinal.

Let us first state the obvious: the overall picture is grim indeed. The influence of modernism is inescapable in the Catholic Church today. But this picture is incomplete; for if we carefully look beyond the surface, in the background we will find there in high relief new possibilities for reconciliation between Anglican Catholics and the Holy See. We realize that perhaps Apostolicae Curae has obscured a part of the Master’s original work – like the conspicuous afterthought of a devoted, but less genuine, student; that, in the original picture, Roman Catholics and Anglican Catholics have always been in communion to a remarkable degree. What remains now is the task of restoring the Master’s original design so that this communion is once again visible, as it was always meant to be, so that Catholics may be truly united in confronting a thoroughly modernistic culture. And as the most powerful weapon at a Christian’s disposal is prayer, so must we be united in prayer – united, indeed, in that greatest Prayer of all, the Holy Mass.

Consider how imperative it is that Anglican Catholics and Roman Catholics speak with one voice, as an earthly echo of the celestial refrain: Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus. Unless we recognise a ministerial priesthood held by us both; a common Sacrifice of the altar; and the same Priest and Victim who both offers, and is, that Sacrifice; then all manner of supposed “agreement” and unity beyond these are for naught. (15)*

angelfire.com/nj/malleus/article.html

This is a fairly long article, but if you want to understand the issues involved in APISTOLOCAE CURAE and trying to reunite Anglican Catholics and the Catholic Church, I think you have to read it and digest it.

Blessings and Peace, Michael

Since the Anglican church is close to ordaining women as bishops soon (not just as priests as they falsely hinted at in the 1970;s) and the problems with allowing openly practicing homosexual clergy in the American and Candian Anglican communion I think more conservative Anglicans will join Rome soon. The heresy and departure from apostolic tradition is just to obvious now.

**## It is very unlikely that Apostolicae Curae will ever be reversed - it’s much more likely that it may cease to be applicable in practice. But not for a good while yet - not all Anglican clergy want to have orders that Rome would see as valid. There are plenty of solid Protestant clergy in the C of E. **

**## It is very unlikely that Apostolicae Curae will ever be reversed - it’s much more likely that it may cease to be applicable in practice. But not for a good while yet - not all Anglican clergy want to have orders that Rome would see as valid. There are plenty of solid Protestant clergy in the C of E. **

**Theologically, AC is in some sense infallible: **

natcath.com/NCR_Online/documents/ratz.htm

[font=Arial]"A similar process can be observed in the more recent teaching regarding the doctrine that priestly ordination is reserved only to men. The Supreme Pontiff, while not wishing to proceed to a dogmatic definition, intended to reaffirm that this doctrine is to be held definitively, since, founded on the written Word of God, constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. As the prior example illustrates, this does not foreclose the possibility that, in the future, the consciousness of the Church might progress to the point where this teaching could be defined as a doctrine to be believed as divinely revealed…[/font]

With regard to those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed, the following examples can be given: the legitimacy of the election of the Supreme Pontiff or of the celebration of an ecumenical council, the canonizations of saints (dogmatic facts), the declaration of Pope Leo XIII in the Apostolic Letter Apostolicae Curae on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations."

[= Ad Tuendam Fidem 1998], and does not find evidence in it of a reactionary conspiracy. This is an Anglicans Online local copy of a no-longer-online Church Times article.](“http://copies.anglicansonline.org/churchtimes/980710a.html”) ##

Anglican Use

Anglican Use is a term used within Catholic theology to refer to Anglican ecclesial communities that have become reconciled with the Catholic Church. This reunion became a formal possibility in 1980. Anglican (or Episcopalian) churches are now able to become particular churches within the Catholic Church. They use the Roman Canon of the Mass, instead of the adaptations to the liturgy of Thomas Cranmer.
WikipediaThe Anglican Use Liturgy in the Roman Catholic Church

In 1980, His Holiness Pope John Paul II granted a Pastoral Provision for the establishment of parishes composed of former Episcopalians which could use a modified liturgy from The Book of Common Prayer. There are, at present, six parishes in the USA now using the Anglican Use liturgy. … These parishes are in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, but permitted to have their own distinctive liturgy and also permitted to follow their own customs at Mass.
Catholic Information Network, (CIN)
The six parishes in the USA now using the Anglican Use liturgy are:Our Lady of the Atonement Parish
San Antonio, TX[indent] “Father Christopher Phillips, Our Lady of the Atonement’s pastor, said his parish is about half former Episcopalians or other Protestant converts and half lifelong Catholics. Father Phillips was ordained a Catholic priest on Aug. 15, 1983, as 17 other Episcopalians became Catholics and formed the beginning of the parish.”
ncregister.com/Register_News/020203rite.htm]‘Anglican-Use’ Rite Attracts Both Converts and Catholics

Our Lady of Walsingham Parish
Houston, TX

St. Mary the Virgin Parish
Arlington, TX

St. Athanasius Congregation
Boston, MA

Church of the Good Shepherd Parish
Columbia, SC

St. Margaret of Scotland Parish
Austin, TX

St. Anselm of Canterbury Catholic Mission
Corpus Christi, TXWelcome to St. Anselm’s, the home in the Diocese of Corpus Christi for the Anglican Use Liturgy. … While many of us are former members of the Episcopal Church, and our liturgy is derived from the old Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church; we are a ROMAN CATHOLIC community in full communion with, and in submission to the Bishop of Corpus Christi and the Holy See.

St. Anselm’s is a Roman Catholic Mission of the Diocese of Corpus Christi. It is a “common identity” community in which certain elements of the Anglican tradition and ethos are retained. This community has no affiliation with the so called Continuing Anglican Movement or with any branch of the Episcopal Church. Rather it’s members, many of whom are converts from the Episcopal Church have been granted permission to retain some elements of the Anglican heritage while remaining fully Roman Catholic.
[/indent]

This is from the website of an Anglican Use parish:Welcome to St. Anselm’s, the home in the Diocese of Corpus Christi for the Anglican Use Liturgy. We hope you enjoy our web page and will have the opportunity to come and worship with us. While many of us are former members of the Episcopal Church, and our liturgy is derived from the old Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church; we are a ROMAN CATHOLIC community in full communion with, and in submission to the Bishop of Corpus Christi and the Holy See.
St. Anslem’s website has this document from the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith which is the source of the following excerpts: Document establishing the Anglican Use

Document Outlining the Pastoral Provision issued by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on July 22, 1980

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in its Ordinary Session of June 18, 1980, has taken the following decisions in regard to the Episcopalians who seek reconciliation with and entrance into the Catholic Church.

I. General Decisions:

  1. The admission of these persons, even in a group, should be considered the reconciliation of individual persons, as described in the Decree on Ecumenism Redintegratio Unitatis, n. 4, of the Second Vatican Council. …

III. Steps required for admission to full communion:

  1. Theological-catechetical preparation is to be provided according to need.

  2. A profession of faith (with appropriate additions to address the points on which there is divergence of teaching between the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church) is to be made personally by all (ministers and faithful) as a conditio sine qua non.

  3. Reordination of the Episcopalian clergy, even those who are married, shall be allowed in accord with the customary practice, after the examination of each individual case by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Let us look at the Anglican communities that have come into full communion with the Catholic Church as a model for how the TAC can come into full communion with the Catholic Church.

We can note the following:

  1. The validity of the orders for each Anglican deacon, priest, and bishop was determined on a case by case basis by Rome. Reordination is allowed.

  2. Because there are Anglican priests and bishops with invalid orders, there are also members of the Anglican laity that have never received valid Sacraments of Initiation. That is why the CDF issued this provision: “The admission of these persons, even in a group, should be considered the reconciliation of individual persons."

  3. The Anglican Use parishes are part of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. …the liturgy at St. Anselm’s is not a separate rite, it is the only approved variation of the Latin Rite in the United States.

The Anglican Use or “Pastoral Provision” was created in accordance with a decision of Pope John Paul II in 1980 as a result of a proposal of the bishops of this country to develop terms under which former members of the Episcopal Church, including clergymen could be admitted into full communion in the Catholic Church while retaining some elements of their liturgy, tradition and devotional life.

  1. All the members of the Anglican comminutes must make the Profession of Faith, i.e. each Anglican must accept ALL the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church.

Trad Ang,

I often recommend the site you have linked to, “ACCIPE POSTESTATEM”, to anyone interested in the sad subject of *Apostolicae Curae. *. The site is maintained by, and the article you have quoted was written by, a net friend of mine, a RC layman who knows more about *Apostolicae Curae * than anyone I have ever met. I have wrestled with him on the subject many times, and have never come even close to pinning him. But he has a most interesting site, and a most interesting viewpoint on traditional Anglican orders, such as you and I are familiar with. I strongly urge anyone interested in Anglican orders, and the Traditional Anglican movement, to vist there and do a little reading.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

[quote=GKC]Trad Ang,

I often recommend the site you have linked to, “ACCIPE POSTESTATEM”, to anyone interested in the sad subject of *Apostolicae Curae. *. The site is maintained by, and the article you have quoted was written by, a net friend of mine, a RC layman who knows more about *Apostolicae Curae * than anyone I have ever met. I have wrestled with him on the subject many times, and have never come even close to pinning him. But he has a most interesting site, and a most interesting viewpoint on traditional Anglican orders, such as you and I are familiar with. I strongly urge anyone interested in Anglican orders, and the Traditional Anglican movement, to vist there and do a little reading.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus
[/quote]

GKC:

This is a Link off from that site, and links back onto it.

I’m trying to get the people who kept banging me on the head with APISTOLOCAE CURAE to read ONE article on the subject by someone who appears to know what he’s talking about.

You’ll notice that Pope Leo’s difficulties with the EDWARDINE ORDINAL had less to do with the words themselves than with the Zietgiest that produced them - Try to think SCHOLASTICALLY or THOMISTICALLY and think of what the word “FORM” or “SUBSTANCE” means to a Thomist!

If you can do that, you’ll see why this Catholic Priest belives that there is hope for REUNION between Anglican Catholics and Rome! You’ll also see why he thinks that that hope doesn’t realistically exist where Canterbury is concerned.

Blessings and Peace, Michael

[quote=Traditional Ang] I’m trying to get the people who kept banging me on the head with APISTOLOCAE CURAE to read ONE article on the subject by someone who appears to know what he’s talking about.
[/quote]

Do you seriously think the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith gives any weight to the article written by Joseph Oliveri that you have hyperlinked?

The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith already knows how to make a determination concerning the validity of the orders received by members of the Anglican clergy. This is easily done, because the Anglicans keep detailed records.Document Outlining the Pastoral Provision issued by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on July 22, 1980

… Reordination of the Episcopalian clergy, even those who are married, shall be allowed in accord with the customary practice, after the examination of each individual case by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
You have already stated several times on other threads, that if a reconciliation were to ever be seriously considered between the TAC and the Catholic Church, that Rome will look at the validity of the ordination of each member of the TAC clergy on a case by case basis. Why have you been saying this?

If your local Anglican community is really interested in full communion with the Catholic Church, why don’t the members of your community ask to become an Anglican Use parish of the Latin Rite? Your parish could become the seventh Anglican Use parish in the USA. The path to reconcilliation has already been blazed for your community by other Anglican Use parishes. Why try to reinvent the wheel?

Greetings, Michael,

The Angelfire site you posted is Joe’s. And he is the author of the article ("*Apostolicae Curae * and the ‘Spirit’ of St. Louis") that you quoted from. Who is the RC priest you are referring to? Joe is a (remarkably knowledgeable) RC layman. He does indeed know what he’s talking about. And on much, he and I are in agreement. Some of his research library, and one of the traditional Anglican ordination rites he lists on his site came from me, during our friendly discussions.

And yes, I’m moderately well versed in the details of the *AC * issue; history, persons involved, doctrine (form, substance, matter, intent and subject), political background, discussion. Lots of it comes from arm wrestling with Joe, over several years. And from reading the original documents and some of the major discussions: Clark, Hughes, Dix, Lowndes, Lula, Tavard, Lacey. The “zeitgeist” as you say, is the reason most discussion today centers on the defect of intention, rather than that of form.

I agree with you that anyone who is interested in that sad topic could profitably spend some time at ACCIPE POSTESTATEM. That’s why I recommend it so often.

GKC

[quote=Traditional Ang]GKC:

This is a Link off from that site, and links back onto it.

I’m trying to get the people who kept banging me on the head with APISTOLOCAE CURAE to read ONE article on the subject by someone who appears to know what he’s talking about.

You’ll notice that Pope Leo’s difficulties with the EDWARDINE ORDINAL had less to do with the words themselves than with the Zietgiest that produced them - Try to think SCHOLASTICALLY or THOMISTICALLY and think of what the word “FORM” or “SUBSTANCE” means to a Thomist!

If you can do that, you’ll see why this Catholic Priest belives that there is hope for REUNION between Anglican Catholics and Rome! You’ll also see why he thinks that that hope doesn’t realistically exist where Canterbury is concerned.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
[/quote]

THE AUTHORITY OF “APOSTOLICAE CURAE”

The question has been raised whether the pronouncement of the Bull “Apostolicae Curae” is or is not to be taken as an infallible utterance of the Holy See. But even if it were not it would not follow that it can be disregarded, and its eventual withdrawal confidently anticipated. **What may be safely assumed is that it fixes the belief and practice of the Catholic Church irrevocably. ** This at least Leo XIII must have meant to signify when in his letter to Cardinal Richard, of 5 November, 1896, he declared that his “intention had been to pass a final judgment and settle (the question) forever” (absolute judicare et penitus dirimere), and that “Catholics were bound to receive (the judgment) with the fullest obedience as perpetuo firmam, ratam, irrevocabilem”.

Anglican Orders
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I

This Rock
Volume 12, Number 7, September 2001

The Trouble with Anglo-Catholicism
By Robert Ian Williams Though the Church of England after the schism with Rome over Henry’s divorce still kept the Catholic sacramental system, radical Protestantism was introduced during the reign of Edward VI. Thomas Cranmer and Edward Seymour, appointed by Henry VIII to positions of power, upon Henry’s death worked openly to introduce the beliefs of the German Reformers. The holy sacrifice of the Mass was replaced by a vernacular communion service that denied transubstantiation and the eucharistic sacrifice. Cranmer’s Book of Common Prayer was written in beautiful English but contained subtle heresy behind its lovely facade. …

From the beginning the Catholic Church rejected Anglican orders. … The Catholic Church solemnly pronounced the invalidity of Anglican orders in 1896.

For three hundred years in the Anglican church there was no pretense at the Mass. There were no prayers for the dead, let alone requiem Masses, and the sacrament of unction of the sick was missing. Reservation of the sacrament was never practiced, and Anglicans were taught not to seek the intercession of the saints. The communion service was infrequently celebrated, and communicants were few. Confession was deemed not to be a sacrament of the gospel and was not encouraged (though the private confession of sins was allowed for), and it fell into general disuse.

The modern resemblance between Catholicism and some sections of Anglicanism derives from the fact that the churches of the Anglican communion were influenced by a ritualist movement in the nineteenth century. It grew out of the Oxford movement, which began in the middle years of that century.

… As the nineteenth century continued, the ritualists appropriated aspects of Catholic liturgical practice that for centuries had been unknown in the Church of England. The eucharistic vestments, most particularly the chasuble, were brought back, as were lighted candles and prayers for the dead. Some Anglican bishops wore miters for the first time. … Soon Methodists and Baptists had robed choirs, elegant buildings mimicking medieval cathedrals, and the cross became acceptable to most if not all Evangelicals.

… After the ordination of women priests was allowed in the Episcopal church in 1976, a few American Anglican parishes seceded to form the Anglican Church of North America. This new denomination soon fractured into a myriad of tiny Anglo-Catholic denominations … Out of this chaos a small minority of disaffected Anglo-Catholics formed the nucleus of the Anglican Use. This was the result of the pastoral provision offered by the Catholic Church in 1980. Currently there are only eight Anglican Use parishes, most of which are in Texas. Their liturgy is an English translation of the Roman Canon of the Mass.

The Trouble with Anglo-CatholicismThe small, hard-line remnant of Anglo-Catholics left in the Anglican Church since the ordination of women priests have grouped together in an organization called Forward in Faith. Some, like Catholic writer William Oddie, a former Anglican, believe that this group could be the basis of an Anglican rite within Catholicism. However, Forward in Faith accepts the ordination of women as deacons, and it would be impossible therefore for this group to transfer to the Catholic Church.

Genuine Catholicism does not involve adherence to types of ritual but acceptance of the successor of Peter as pope and head of the Church on earth. Only by being in communion with him can we be guaranteed the security of an indefectible faith and genuine sacraments. Anglo-Catholicism is essentially an aberration. It shows what could happen to the Catholic Church were it not protected by the divine plan of God.

For a few it has proved a bridge to Catholic Church. But for the majority of its members it is a sidetrack that has prevented them from finding the beauty and liberation of Catholic truth and the grace of the sacraments.

**

[quote=Traditional Ang]GKC:
[/quote]

This is a Link off from that site, and links back onto it.

I’m trying to get the people who kept banging me on the head with APISTOLOCAE CURAE to read ONE article on the subject by someone who appears to know what he’s talking about.**

**## Who’s doing that :frowning: ? **

FWIW, not all who quote the Bull have read that and nothing else - and how do Anglican clergy fit in, who are not in the least interested in finding that they are validly ordained priests with the “power to offer sacrifices for the living and the dead” ?

**Not all Anglican clergy want that - yet that won’t stop them, or their yet more anti-Roman fellow clergyman, being equally validly ordained by the standards of Anglican theology on the matter. Not all validly Anglican ministers want to be validly Roman priests. Some would probably regard being a Roman priest as a form of leprosy - they at least will give no thanks to their fellow Anglicans who insist that those who abhor Rome, are as truly sacrificing priests as RCs priests are. **

**A further point - you might not regard Apostolicae Curae as worth anything. That’s a view you can afford to hold, but that RCs can’t. Leo XIII made abundantly clear what weight the Bull was to have, and that judgement was re-affirmed in 1998. We don’t have the luxury of ignoring inconvenient bits of paper. You cannot ask Catholics to ignore PI, or this exercise of it. **
**You still have to show why the CC should change its practice for the convenience of ex-Anglicans. **

Incidentally, the Bull, if infallible, is so,** even if the arguments are tripe. The decisive part of the Bull, is the decision at the end ****- not the arguments ****for the decision. ****## **

**

You’ll notice that Pope Leo’s difficulties with the EDWARDINE ORDINAL

had less to do with the words themselves than with the Zietgiest that produced them - Try to think SCHOLASTICALLY or THOMISTICALLY and think of what the word “FORM” or “SUBSTANCE” means to a Thomist!**

**## As a description of the Pope who promulgated “Aeterni Patris” in 1879, almost as the first act of his Pontificate, this is absurd. **

All dogmas - including the Incarnation - can be undermined if one appeals to the Zeitgeist as to an explanation of them. ##

**

If you can do that, you’ll see why this Catholic Priest belives that there is hope for REUNION between Anglican Catholics and Rome! You’ll also see why he thinks that that hope doesn’t realistically exist where Canterbury is concerned.

Blessings and Peace, Michael**

**## Rome is less triumphalistically anti-Cantuarian than some Anglicans (so-called). It’s not enough to enter the CC (on one’s own terms, natch) - one must also kick out at Anglicans. Even when bishops in communion with Canterbury ordain members of the TAC. Some “Anglicans” **
**aren’t pro-Rome, but anti-Cantuarian. These are not the same things. **
**Bashing Anglicanism is not logically entailed in being RC - the Pope is RC, but he doesn’t rejoice and make merry and exult over the difficulties and troubles of Anglicanism. **
Why do (aspiring) converts behave in this horrible fashion ? ##

Well said.

:thumbsup:

[quote=Matt16_18]THE AUTHORITY OF “APOSTOLICAE CURAE”

The question has been raised whether the pronouncement of the Bull “Apostolicae Curae” is or is not to be taken as an infallible utterance of the Holy See. But even if it were not it would not follow that it can be disregarded, and its eventual withdrawal confidently anticipated. **What may be safely assumed is that it fixes the belief and practice of the Catholic Church irrevocably. ** This at least Leo XIII must have meant to signify when in his letter to Cardinal Richard, of 5 November, 1896, he declared that his “intention had been to pass a final judgment and settle (the question) forever” (absolute judicare et penitus dirimere), and that “Catholics were bound to receive (the judgment) with the fullest obedience as perpetuo firmam, ratam, irrevocabilem”.

Anglican Orders
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I
[/quote]

And Cardinal Ratzinger sort of reinforced that point, in 1998. Sort of.

GKC

GoG,

“All dogmas - including the Incarnation - can be undermined if one appeals to the Zeitgeist as to an explanation of them. ##”

I’m not optimistic about this thread. But I’ll keep adding bits and pieces, at least for a while.

Unless I grossly misread Trad Ang’s comment, it isn’t the zeitgeist that produced *Apostolicae Curae * that is meant. It’s the zeitgeist that produced the Edwardine Ordinal. The form in the Ordinal was judged as defective, not so much for itself, as for the context in which it was produced. It did differ from the then current Roman Pontifical, but other rites, then and now, differ in the same ways, and Rome finds such rites capable of conferring valid orders (See Lula, HOLY ORDERS, HOLY SACRAMENTS). It was the historical context in which those changes were made that caused that form, originated by those men, at that time, to be judged invalid, when others are not so judged. The point of the article Trad Ang was citing was that, given the existence of both Old Catholic and PNCC lines in the Anglican Episcopacy, and given the demonstrated intent of many of the Continuing Anglicans, with respect to the sacerdotal priesthood, as evidenced in the rites now used by many Traditional Anglican jurisdictions (you can find a line by line comparision of the current rites, both traditionalist Anglican and RC, as well as the 16th century Roman Pontifical, at that site. The comparision is interesting), a case can be made for reconsidering Continuing Anglicans as they are now as a condition not covered by AC. And that is an important consideration for Trad Ang, since his Traditional Anglican Communion would be such a case.

BTW, I am quite familiar with the proper RC attitude toward AC. If I find RCs not affirming it, I remind them they should. I also mention Joe’s site.

GKC

Matt:

I don’t know. For all I know, this may reflect one of their official positions. Did you read the full article?

[quote=Matt16_18]Do you seriously think the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith gives any weight to the article written by Joseph Oliveri that you have hyperlinked?

The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith already knows how to make a determination concerning the validity of the orders received by members of the Anglican clergy. This is easily done, because the Anglicans keep detailed records.Document Outlining the Pastoral Provision issued by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on July 22, 1980

… Reordination of the Episcopalian clergy, even those who are married, shall be allowed in accord with the customary practice, after the examination of each individual case by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
You have already stated several times on other threads, that if a reconciliation were to ever be seriously considered between the TAC and the Catholic Church, that Rome will look at the validity of the ordination of each member of the TAC clergy on a case by case basis. Why have you been saying this?
[/quote]

I never said that would look into the validity of the order of individual Anglican Bishops and Priests in the TAC. I stated that Cardinal Ratzinger and his people already had done a line by line analysis on may of those clergymen.

This is speculation, but I imagine that the Vatican decided to do this to assure themselves that as many TAC Anglicans as possible were receiving valid Sacraments while the talks were ongoing, and to help them decide whom they would have to reordain first (those with known problems in their Orders) when the Reunion occured.

[quote=Matt16_18]If your local Anglican community is really interested in full communion with the Catholic Church, why don’t the members of your community ask to become an Anglican Use parish of the Latin Rite? Your parish could become the seventh Anglican Use parish in the USA. The path to reconcilliation has already been blazed for your community by other Anglican Use parishes. Why try to reinvent the wheel?
[/quote]

Matt, St. Mary’s is part of a greater Anglican community which is presently engaged in very serious and ongoing negotiations (or as Bishop Chislett put it, “A Pilgrimage”) with Rome. These are NOT being conducted along the lines of ARCIC, which would have produced a Unity in Name only (But NO Doctrinal Unity)

St. Mary’s was among the first parishes (if not the first) to apply for the Anglican Use Providion. The Archbishop here made it very clear that he didn’t want St. Mary’s or any other Anglican Use Parish at the time. I’m not allowed to discuss that in any more detail than that.

We are NOT “re-inventing the Wheel”. The “Wheel” was invented in the 15th and 16th Centuries by the Catholic Church when they accepted all of the Eastern Catholic Churches. The fact that you don’t want to use that “Wheel” to take in the “Anglican Catholic Church” (Rename of TAC after the reunion) doesn’t mean that the “Wheel” doesn’t exist and that it isn’t fully usable in this case or that the Vatican is fully intent on using it for that matter.

Matt, the Holy Father and Archbishop Hepworth seem to have decided to use that “Wheel” I’ve referred to and have requested patience and prayers. Will you give them to them?

Blessings and Peace, Michael

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