Animals do have immortal souls


#204

None of that contradicts what I said.


#205

So then you are saying that God did not creat the creatures of the Earth, other than humans, to preserve them for eternity.


#206

No, and I think you are aware of that.


#207

No, not aware of that because you said “None of that contradicts what I said.” Since what I posted says that "the human person is “the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake.” and sake means to preserve them for eternity.


#208

Honestly, I’m not at all sure what you’re trying to get that. How does our nature change the fact that “all of creation” has some part to play in the new heavens and the new earth? And how does it contradict the words of many holy men and women besides Aquinas, Popes included?


#209

Will my pet Chihuahua-chomping Black-throated Monitor be in heaven? Sure hope so, if there are Chihuahuas there.


#210

Posted before was the contradiction: “God doesn’t create things without immortal souls.”

What contractions of Aquinas an Popes are you referring to.


#211
  • The IDEA and TEACHING of human having a Spirit - is directly connected to The Accountability of The Soul, Mind, Body and Individual Human - Which is Accountable to God. Animals are accountable to God in the Bible.
    The SPIRIT WORLD “ is the world of evil, of satan, of demons and the world of gods holy spirit. And - The Fruits of the Holy Spirit, Righteousness, Peace, Love, Joy …ECT…. and the Spirits of Darkness.

**Gods Plan is to Graft our Souls with His Eternal Spirit, Therefore God has ORDAINED The Soul Of Man as a Spirit. Because He * ( The Spirit ) Created Man To be Subject to the Spirit World. Man is Body and Spirit. Created In God’s Image. When We Die – The Bible says that we sleep in time. and remain asleep for thousands and thousands of years, not conscience, waking up in a flash of time. That we *( As DEAD ) do not realize is passing, as it is passing. it is like being asleep. you fall into sleep and the next moment you wake, unaware of the time, as it is passing while passing. **

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, The Bible explains that - IN THE SECOND COMING - THE DEAD WILL RISE FIRST. We shall not all sleep - and THE LIVING WILL BE CAUGHT UP TO MEET THEM ( The Sleeping Dead. ) - IN THE AIR

MT 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which SLEPT arose,
Luke 8:52 My daughter is even now dead: …JESUS said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not DEAD, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Joh 11:11 , Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
1CO 15:20 Christ risen from the DEAD, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
I Thessalonians 4:14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. …we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1CO 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all SLEEP, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised and The Old Testament has the Same Teaching.
DANIEL 12:1 At that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that SLEEP in the dust of the earth shall awake,
JOB 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their SLEEP
DE 31:16 o Moses, Behold, thou shalt SLEEP with thy fathers; and these people will raise up
2CH 33:20 So Manasseh SLEPT with his fathers
2CH 32:33 And Hezekiah SLEPT with his fathers
2CH 28:27 And Ahaz SLEPT with his fathers
2CH 27:9 And Jotham SLEPT with his fathers
2CH 26:23 So Uzziah SLEPT with his fathers
2CH 21:1 Now Jehoshaphat SLEPT with his fathers Ect……

This study was very time consuming, however, I am glad that I took the time to see what the Bible actually says about the soul and the difference between human and animal.


#212

Wrong. Because some parts of the Bible are to be taken literally, while others not.


#213

are there bengal tigers in heaven? alligators? cobras?

have they lost their predatory instinct?

is there an ocean where heavenlly (non-predatory) tiger sharks swim?

and what abou locusts, cockroaches & mosquitoes?

do i have to deal w/ these pests & predators there?

(assuming i make it heaven, in the fist place)


#214

In reply to the post above:

If the lion will lay down with the lamb here on earth after Jesus comes again, God can do anything with them there in heaven. Their natures would be changed.

The book of Genesis says that God brought all the animals to Adam to see what he would call them. They didn’t kill and eat Adam. It was after the fall that God put the fear of man into animals, as also written in the book of Genesis. Not until then that the world became a hostile place in which to live.

Maybe there are oceans in Heaven where sharks swim–Heaven is vast–probably as big as our whole universe, so there would be plenty of room. But they wouldn’t be predators. There will be no death in Heaven. If animals are in heaven, they will probably have their own place there. There won’t be cats and dogs running around the Throne Room.

In one book I read about a vision of heaven, a very strong Catholic was taken into heaven and Jesus showed her part of it. She saw streams in heaven and asked Jesus if there were fish there and he said yes. She asked him if people went fishing there and he said no, nothing like that happens in heaven. Jesus took her to a place where she heard crickets chirping.

But this is all personal revelation, not approved, and we can’t be sure it really happened. The author said this is what happened to her.
But I certainly don’t base my personal beliefs on this one book I read. It only made me ‘feel good’ because I believed this already–or at least hoped it to be true. I’ve had my own personal experiences which would confirm this.

I’ve studied scripture enough to believe that it was written to man about man. Not written to man with the idea of complete revelation of all things, but only so man could find his way back to God. I think I’ve said in all my posts, that we can’t know for sure about the destiny of all God’s creatures.

Yep.


#215

Exactly. . . . and “horses in heaven” . . . are not.

Its called “imagery” and Revelation more than pretty much any other book of the bible, if full of it.


#216

Hello.

There was a missing word " or missing word that I left out " in my previous post about Animals being accountable to God in the Bible.

I somehow unintentionally or accidentally left out the word "not " Animals are not accountable to God in the Bible. I really do not see anything at all in the Bible that indicates that animals have an afterlife are accountable or judged in the afterlife.

Wow - I agree with just about everyone here, :leaves:

This is such a great subject, I was so interested some time ago that I have actually taken a lot of time in my spare moments to study what the Bible has to say about this subject.
I was drawn to the subject because, in the Book of Job, it says - That a soul can be strangled to death and die.
Job 7:15 So that my soul choose strangling, and death from my life.

It can be confusing, but the Scriptures are filled with hundreds of passages that say that animals also have souls
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let waters bring forth many moving creatures that hath a SOUL, and fowl that may fly…
Gen 2:19 …Every fowl of the air …… and whatsoever Adam named, every living SOUL, that was the name thereof.
A variety of other verses say that animals are “ SOULS “ such as Gen_9:4, Gen_1:24, Gen_1:30, Gen_9:10, Lev_17:14, Lev_20:25, Deu_12:15, Hag 2:13

The Bible indicates clearly that Animals Do Have Souls or really, literally are a soul
And the Protestant and Catholic translators shifted back and forth between words like heart, body, mind, will, desire, pleasure, appetite, ghost, dead, mortally, any, lives, yourselves, one, any, thing, beast, man, persons, me, she, he, them, man, any, yourselves, thyself - but when they used all of these other words - they are all the same exact Hebrew word for “ SOUL “And the Hebrew word SOUL - נֶפֶשׁ - nephesh is used 753 times in the Old Testament. " although mostly as soul " But also as other words inserted by the translators, in order to doctor and liven up the storyline and plot.

However, with the Hebrew word for “ SPIRIT, “ the translators did not shift back and forth and insert the 28 + other words that You see above there for the word " soul " as the translators attempted to couch and formulate their personal doctrine into the manuscript texts for many other words.

The Hebrew word “ SPIRIT “ is solely and exclusively mainly centered and focused around the SPIRIT WORLD - these words. ---- spirit, wind, breath, air, blast, whirlwind
And the Hebrew word SPIRIT רוּחַ - rûach is used 378 times in the Old Testament.

And the SAME exact Hebrew and Greek words that are Used for Human Souls are also used to indicate Animals as literal Souls. And Passages that Show that The Soul of a Human - can be Killed by another man.
But . i do not see where that animals are Shown to have a SPIRIT רוּחַ - rûach.

I was wondering if anyone here has ever discovered this in the Bible ?
What do You think ?


#217

This is what I was saying a little bit in my previous post. that **Gods Plan is to Graft our Souls with His Eternal Spirit, Therefore God has ORDAINED The Soul Of Man as a Spirit. Because He * ( The Spirit ) Created Man to be Subject to the Spirit World. Man is Body and Spirit. Created In God’s Image.

But not animals ?


#218

Animals do NOT have spiritual souls. They have material souls which cease to exist when an animal dies.


#219

*According to Thomas Aquinas. :sunglasses:


#220

Good Evening Thistle: I was curious about the references you made to material souls earlier on, and when I asked, you suggested that I read to the top of the post, which I did. I had asked because I thought you may have had an interesting line of thinking with regard to the nature of just exactly what a soul is, however, it seems that you are just following a Thomistic line of thinking, based on the content you had directed me to. I have never found that view to be very compelling though, but the level of assuredness you seem to have on the matter is even more intriguing for me at least because it suggests that you may have surmised something rooted in, yet going beyond Aquinas’ 13th century reasoning. I have always been interested in the nature of the soul, for instance, how individualized they might or might not be, and in what way do they find a connection with matter, such as a sentient body. Is it simply consciousness, and if it is, just what is consciousness and where does it reside? Is it epiphenomenal of matter as materialists suggest? Those are the sort of things I was hoping you might be able to elucidate on. For me, this subject is the primary existential question. Is there something novel here, or are we just repeating a Cartesian level of hubris with regard to humans v. other animals? I hope we (and anyone who cares to join) can have an interesting discussion, because I truly love new and expanded ideas. I would also like to something convincing with regards to the souls of other animals as compared to ours. I am not inclined to follow any particular faith tradition on the matter, but am open to any sound reasoning any of them may offer. To be clear at the outset, I am not inclined at this point in the discussion to believe that there’s is a difference between a human soul and the souls of other species, but I learn something new everyday.


#221

As I’ve argued elsewhere, the problem with discussions about the soul as a concept in Roman Catholic theology, is that certain terms have become conflated. When the RCC teaches that animals don’t have souls, what She means precisely is that animals are not self-conscious, and that therefore they cannot receive the Holy Spirit. This is, of course, correct. However, to designate this self-consciousness and its concomitant ability to receive the Holy Spirit as “soul”, is awkward, because soul is also (and typically) used to translate the Latin “anima”, from which the word animal derives directly of course. RCC teaching thus ends up holding that “creatures-with-souls (the literal meaning of “animal”) don’t have souls”.

Without a clarification, or renewed definition, of terms, discussion isn’t really fruitful. I have proposed “spirit” as a better term for what the RCC currently calls “soul”, because this follows straightforwardly from “Holy Spirit” — we humans don’t receive the Holy “Soul”, we receive the Holy Spirit. With this correction in place, the term “soul” can then be retained for consciousness per se, as distinct from self-consciousness. Alternative definitions are possible, e.g. the reverse: designate consciousness as “spirit” and self-consciousness as “soul”. That would allow the RCC teaching to stand as it does now, but we would then have to translate the Latin “anima” as spirit – which is fine, but it’s a break with a long-standing norm in translating Latin.


#222

ANIMALS HAVE SOULS, AS PER FATHER PACWA

animals do not have immortal souls

not sure what the difficulty is here

do you want snails & crickets & frogs & scorpions in heaven?


#223

i hate to "double post’

but if you want to see lowly, poisonous predatory snakes, wolves. brown bears, crocodiles, bengal tigers in heaven
that is up to you

that is not my my view of Heaven


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