Anointing and Baptists?


#1

I always thought that Baptists didn’t believe in Sacraments, but I recently heard a lady recount an annointing of oil at her Baptist church for a sick person. Reference was made by another Baptist gentleman to James 5:13. She even went so far as to suggest that the actual steps were required by God so didn’t even try to explain away the oil as superflous in lieu of the prayer/faith only.

I asked another Baptist of the same church about it. She had said previously she didn’t believe in the sacraments so I asked her what she thought a sacrament was. She thought “they are something we [catholics] had to do”.

When I gave her an adlib definition of sacrament as being a visible sign of an actual grace imparted by God and instituted by Jesus Christ . She replied that maybe her friend believed in Sacraments.

She also replied that I, instead of trying to find fault, should try to recognize our similarities.

I replied that was precisely why I broached the subject of what a sacrament was with her.

She added that she didn’t like the rituals we do. I suggested that a ritual was just a procedure like the one in James 5:13. (I think she was referring to the Sign of the Cross. For the life of me I still can’t understand why she dislikes it so.)

But I could tell she was getting angry so decided to leave it at that.

Underlying all of this I have found some Baptists don’t like to even call themselves Baptists, but prefer Evangelical and don’t seem to care if individual beliefs differ from the church they are attending. I even heard their pastor say as part of his sermon that “I don’t care if your Catholic, Methodist, United, Baptist…” as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour. ( I am not sure if I quoted correctly the denominations other than Catholic. To be honest that sermon surprised me as I had met another Baptist who had before knowing I was Catholic said “Catholics were as close to Christian as one can get”) I even had a chat with their pastor where he spoke of knowing “Evangelical” Catholics.

Is there “official” Baptist teaching on any specific matters? Is there core teaching they all adhere to? Is it the norm for Baptist Churches to perform their version of the annointing of the sick? I realize they call Baptism an ordinance and that for them it is just a symbol and do it because Jesus commanded it. But with the “annointing of the sick” the first lady’s description of it bordered on belief in at least one sacrament?

Anyone have any insight?


#2

In evangelical circles I have noticed the practice of annointing with oil has somewhat a resurgance as many other catholic tradition is has strong scriptural support. Traditionally Baptist are not high on such sacramentals but Baptis are almost independant by nature and many dogmas held by many baptist sucha as the rapture are not historically traced to the Baptist denomination but rather adopted perhaps this is another adoption albeit a catholic adoption. Of course per the catholic tradion this is given by the bishop and can be a sacrament by confirmation and of course given in the extreme unction of last rites now coomonly referred to as the annointing of the sick. In evangelical circles it is necessarily given for these circumstances many times it is given for a blessing or given at their pastors apppointment which is kinda weird since they don’t beleive in a priesthood or ordination. They contradict themselves here.

But of course this begs the question who is laying on hands who is annointing the early fathers and Bible make clear this is done by the bishop or the presbyter by apostolic succesion not just any joe blow. In protestantims this is given by any Joe blow thus negating any desired effects no matter how well intended.


#3

[quote=Ontario]I always thought that Baptists didn’t believe in Sacraments, but I recently heard a lady recount an annointing of oil at her Baptist church for a sick person. Reference was made by another Baptist gentleman to James 5:13. She even went so far as to suggest that the actual steps were required by God so didn’t even try to explain away the oil as superflous in lieu of the prayer/faith only.

I asked another Baptist of the same church about it. She had said previously she didn’t believe in the sacraments so I asked her what she thought a sacrament was. She thought “they are something we [catholics] had to do”.

When I gave her an adlib definition of sacrament as being a visible sign of an actual grace imparted by God and instituted by Jesus Christ . She replied that maybe her friend believed in Sacraments.

She also replied that I, instead of trying to find fault, should try to recognize our similarities.

I replied that was precisely why I broached the subject of what a sacrament was with her.

She added that she didn’t like the rituals we do. I suggested that a ritual was just a procedure like the one in James 5:13. (I think she was referring to the Sign of the Cross. For the life of me I still can’t understand why she dislikes it so.)

But I could tell she was getting angry so decided to leave it at that.

Underlying all of this I have found some Baptists don’t like to even call themselves Baptists, but prefer Evangelical and don’t seem to care if individual beliefs differ from the church they are attending. I even heard their pastor say as part of his sermon that “I don’t care if your Catholic, Methodist, United, Baptist…” as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour. ( I am not sure if I quoted correctly the denominations other than Catholic. To be honest that sermon surprised me as I had met another Baptist who had before knowing I was Catholic said “Catholics were as close to Christian as one can get”) I even had a chat with their pastor where he spoke of knowing “Evangelical” Catholics.

Is there “official” Baptist teaching on any specific matters? Is there core teaching they all adhere to? Is it the norm for Baptist Churches to perform their version of the annointing of the sick? I realize they call Baptism an ordinance and that for them it is just a symbol and do it because Jesus commanded it. But with the “annointing of the sick” the first lady’s description of it bordered on belief in at least one sacrament?

Anyone have any insight?
[/quote]

Hello Ontario.

I’m Southern Baptist myself. Our theology does not include “sacraments”, but ordinances - the Lord’s Supper and baptism.

Anointing with oil has been done since ancient times in Judaism as you probably already knew. It is not considered a sacrament, but simply a sign, similar to baptism. It is a physical representation or symbol of your previous faith in God.

Faith first.

I have anointed all our homes and children with oil. It is a sign of blessing.

I’m so very glad you have brought up the fact that the Baptist pastor mentioned all denominations, including Catholics in partaking of salvation. I have said so many times on this forum that this is my belief and the pastors who have been over me this 32 years of my existence.

Unfortunately, some have been the unfortunate recipients of Catholic bashing by Baptists and it is hard for them to realize that we don’t all feel that way.


#4

[quote=Ontario]…Is there “official” Baptist teaching on any specific matters? Is there core teaching they all adhere to? Is it the norm for Baptist Churches to perform their version of the annointing of the sick? I realize they call Baptism an ordinance and that for them it is just a symbol and do it because Jesus commanded it. But with the “annointing of the sick” the first lady’s description of it bordered on belief in at least one sacrament?

Anyone have any insight?
[/quote]

The Baptists have several major divisions between their sects like Southern, Northern, Freewill, etc… Each division has similarities within it but even these can change from church to church, preacher to preacher and member to member. Today, many Baptist churches refuse to put “Baptist” on their signs due to the negative conotations it implies on new members. I have even been to one such hidden Baptist church in UT for Bible study classes. I have read about the movement nationwide also.

Welcome to the delima and nightmare of self-interpretation gone wild that Jesus preached against. This is why I left the Baptist contridiction of opinions for the Catholic theology of Faith.

One Baptist can believe one thing and another member of the same church is free to believe something else (Usually not on too major a topic though like the Virgin birth of Jesus).

They believe in self-interpretation and their churches divide or change belief’s at will. New preacher may equal new opinions unless the elders pick a preacher with the opinions they want taught. Calvinist at church “A” and around the corner anti-calvanist at church “B”. Just pick what you feel good about believing that day.

I didn’t help you much as I never saw any Baptist church use oil but they did use water (not amniotic womb fluid;) ) for Baptism. They worship and pray to their Bible the same way they acuse Catholics of praying to statues too(i.e. facing them with head bowed, etc.). Anyway, I hope someone else here knows more about this particular subject. On a subject as somewhat minor as this Baptist opinions will change like the wind.

Baptist are Christian, some very good Christians too, but you will have a hard time pinning them to one opinion. Just pray to Blessed Mary to help guide them home.


#5

[quote=ahimsaman72]Hello Ontario.

I’m Southern Baptist myself. Our theology does not include “sacraments”, but ordinances - the Lord’s Supper and baptism.

Anointing with oil has been done since ancient times in Judaism as you probably already knew. It is not considered a sacrament, but simply a sign, similar to baptism. It is a physical representation or symbol of your previous faith in God.

.
[/quote]

Uh Yeah your ordinances don’t include annointing of the sick, ordination or confirmation or any ordinance even a blessing using oil.
Sorry this is an adoption of your particular branch of Baptist. No where is this in the original Baptist confession.
Like the rapture and many other doctinres Baptist are free to adopt or reject certain practices and beleifs some Baptist have recently adopted this very catholic tradition. I am sorry you will find this prace in early catholicism you won’t find this practice in the Baptist confession or the early practices of the Baptist denomination. Since the Baptsit churches are loosely organized they are almost non-denominational in a way they free to choose and reject many doctrines and practices.


#6

[quote=Maccabees]Uh Yeah your ordinances don’t include annointing of the sick, ordination or confirmation or any ordinance even a blessing using oil.
Sorry this is an adoption of your particular branch of Baptist. No where is this in the original Baptist confession.
Like the rapture and many other doctinres Baptist are free to adopt or reject certain practices and beleifs some Baptist have recently adopted this very catholic tradition. I am sorry you will find this prace in early catholicism you won’t find this practice in the Baptist confession or the early practices of the Baptist denomination. Since the Baptsit churches are loosely organized they are almost non-denominational in a way they free to choose and reject many doctrines and practices.
[/quote]

I thought I made it clear that we only had two ordinances - weren’t you listening?:slight_smile:

And, right, we don’t have a doctrine that identifies using oil as a blessing. We don’t have to. Since there is a priesthood of believers, I as the priest of my home, have decided at points in my life to use anointing oil to bless my children and our homes - as I have already stated.

And, right for the second time, (you are on a roll) it is not found in the original baptist confessions. This is not irregular. The Catholic church as customs and practices that develop over time, don’t they?

Yes, thank God we have the freedom to decide on many issues.


#7

[quote=Maccabees]Uh Yeah your ordinances don’t include annointing of the sick, ordination or confirmation or any ordinance even a blessing using oil.
Sorry this is an adoption of your particular branch of Baptist. No where is this in the original Baptist confession.
Like the rapture and many other doctinres Baptist are free to adopt or reject certain practices and beleifs some Baptist have recently adopted this very catholic tradition. I am sorry you will find this prace in early catholicism you won’t find this practice in the Baptist confession or the early practices of the Baptist denomination. Since the Baptsit churches are loosely organized they are almost non-denominational in a way they free to choose and reject many doctrines and practices.
[/quote]

This practice is not a Southern Baptist doctrine. It’s a *practice *used in different protestant circles, some baptist, some pentecostal. It is not a doctrine. *It is a practice some choose to use, others do not. *


#8

[size=3][font=Times New Roman]thought I made it clear that we only had two ordinances - weren’t you listening?

And, right, we don’t have a doctrine that identifies using oil as a blessing. We don’t have to. Since there is a priesthood of believers, I as the priest of my home, have decided at points in my life to use anointing oil to bless my children and our homes - as I have already stated.

And, right for the second time, (you are on a roll) it is not found in the original baptist confessions. This is not irregular. The Catholic church as customs and practices that develop over time, don’t they?

Yes, thank God we have the freedom to decide on many issues.

[/size]

[/font]

I didn’t say you had more than 2 ordinances. My point is this is an irregular pracitice among Baptist; some do it and some do not. Another decide for yourself practice for protestants.

You call it freedom I call it uncertainty. Some churches will say this is fine some would say it shouldn’t be practiced. We Catholics also believe in the priesthood of all believers.

But we believe in apostolic succession… This is not a made up doctrine that Is optional it is a sacrament that is clearly found in scripture. Catholic apostolic traditions are to be found in the original deposit of faith they are not made up as you imply. This is dogma and not custom or discipline which can be changed over time. You really need to study on Catholcism before making such uneducated comments.

[size=3][font=Times New Roman]This practice is not a Southern Baptist doctrine. It’s a *practice *

[/size]used in different protestant circles, some baptist, some pentecostal. It is not a doctrine. *It is a practice some choose to use, others do not. *

[/font]**
Yes this demonstrated the weakness of Protestantism you don’t have one truth you have options. You have Baptist churches with entire different takes on eschatology.

This does not describe the apostolic faith of one faith on lord one batptism.

The lord said to the apostles to teach all things not to hand out Bibles and give the people options.


#9

Uneducated comments? What are you talking about?

I never said anointing with oil is simply a practice in the Catholic church. I said it was a practice in the Baptist Church. Again, weren’t you listening? I know full well the seven sacraments of the Catholic church and what they mean. I’ve been studying Catholicism (from its source) for a while now. Don’t patronize me.

I regret ever posting on this thread but simply did it to answer the poster’s question.


#10

THe practice originated in the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church not the Baptist church. Your implication that our practices are merely made up is what is uneducated. You have little concept on what is holy tradition and what is disciplinary custom. You need to read some more.


#11

[quote=Maccabees]THe practice originated in the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church not the Baptist church. Your implication that our practices are merely made up is what is uneducated. You have little concept on what is holy tradition and what is disciplinary custom. You need to read some more.
[/quote]

Point to my implication that your practices are merely made up.

No thanks. I’ve read all I can stand. At this point, my mind is closed to Catholicism - partly due to ungracious souls such as yourself.


#12

[quote=Maccabees]THe practice originated in the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church not the Baptist church. Your implication that our practices are merely made up is what is uneducated. You have little concept on what is holy tradition and what is disciplinary custom. You need to read some more.
[/quote]

Wrong. The practice started in the early Christian church as it is mentioned in the book of James. Wrong, wrong, wrong.


#13

[quote=ahimsaman72]Wrong. The practice started in the early Christian church as it is mentioned in the book of James. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
[/quote]

The early christian church is the catholic church, because the early church had the 7 sacraments. Even the Bible records them. The early church had apostilic succession like it still does today. The church fathers record this.


#14

[quote=ahimsaman72]Point to my implication that your practices are merely made up.

No thanks. I’ve read all I can stand. At this point, my mind is closed to Catholicism - partly due to ungracious souls such as yourself.
[/quote]

Your slide remarks such as this

And, right for the second time, (you are on a roll) it is not found in the original baptist confessions. This is not irregular. The Catholic church as customs and practices that develop over time, don’t they?

Uh no the annointing of oil as a sacrament started in the catholic church during the time the new testament was being written ie Book of James we did develop this out of the blue over time.


#15

[quote=ahimsaman72]Wrong. The practice started in the early Christian church as it is mentioned in the book of James. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
[/quote]

Well yeah I would agree this practice was in the early church it was not like you implied developed in the catholic church.
The churces in the Bible were catholic apostoilc churches as affirmed by the creeds and history. The gentile city of antioch coined the term christian and the term catholic as ways of identifying the true church. It was earlier known as THE WAY in Jerusalem.
IT was clearly not the Baptist church in James as you yourself say your a Bible beleiving church. Well since there was no Bible at this time who was James writing to? He was writing to the only existing church at the time the catholic church. As you seem to overlook the Church came before the Bible not the other way around the church in the Bible was not Bible based. THe Bible is a church based book it was written by the church to church commmunites and canonized by the church. Jesus did not hand out Bibles to everyone to argue over. Sorry to inform you of this fact.

Now lets look at this very catholic verse:
**

**James 5
**

14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for (1) the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, (2) anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15 and the (3) prayer offered in faith will 1] (4) restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will (5) raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

You have a priest or presbyter (not any lay person) doing the sacrament of annointing of the sick. Also in this act his sins are forgiven in sacrament of confession this is not an ordinance as his sins are forgiven him through the sacrament. Sorry this is very catholic and not very Baptist.**


#16

I appreciate your comments. (Sometimes when things are written down they can be read by different people in different ways not intended by the person writing them.)

I was curious what Baptist’s of other congregarions thought. The only Baptist’s I know are from “Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada”.


#17

Our Baptist Brother did not say that Catholics developed the doctrine of annointing with oil, he said that Baptists had developed it. He then compared it to doctrinal development of the Catholic Church. In other words, Catholics should not have a problem with it because doctrine develops over time. He called it a practice of the Baptist church not a practice of the Catholic Church. He was explaining something from a Baptist point of view and Baptist terminolgy.

I do not have enough knowledge about Baptists to say whether or not this is a problem for them, but since annointing with oil is Biblical, I can’t see how it would be a problem.

However, I think the problem is that Catholics can show Biblical verses that show concepts, that lead to the development of doctrine, but are bashed over the head saying no, no, no, you’ve completely distorted the true meaning of Scripture. It seems to be wishing to have the freedom to develop doctrine without allowing Catholics to have done the same.

That being said, this thread was asking Baptists for their beliefs. It became somewhat of a bash the baptist session. If that was not the intent, then starting comments with “Uh yeah” and calling him uneducated for calling the BAPTIST practice of annointing with oil a practice, is certainly counter productive to a civil exchange.

Tone can be mistaken in this forum. It is easy to do. But in my honest opinion, the general tone to our Baptist brother was condescending and hostile.

However, it would be a cop out to blame other people for not pursuing the truth. And the truth has more to do with problems with the authority of the Catholic Church than the uncharitable words and actions of those in it. I think the worst disservice a person can do is lie about the real reason for any action. Whether it is, no I meant to be nice, “Uh yeah sure I believe you” or it is the uncharitableness of people that keep me from looking further (but not quetions of authority?) Come on fellow Christians, honesty with God starts with honesty to yourself.

That is enough of pointing out others toothpicks, I have a headache, I need to go now and get rid of this log.

Your imperfect sister in Christ,
Maria


#18

[quote=MariaG]Our Baptist Brother did not say that Catholics developed the doctrine of annointing with oil, he said that Baptists had developed it. He then compared it to doctrinal development of the Catholic Church. In other words, Catholics should not have a problem with it because doctrine develops over time. He called it a practice of the Baptist church not a practice of the Catholic Church. He was explaining something from a Baptist point of view and Baptist terminolgy.

I do not have enough knowledge about Baptists to say whether or not this is a problem for them, but since annointing with oil is Biblical, I can’t see how it would be a problem.

However, I think the problem is that Catholics can show Biblical verses that show concepts, that lead to the development of doctrine, but are bashed over the head saying no, no, no, you’ve completely distorted the true meaning of Scripture. It seems to be wishing to have the freedom to develop doctrine without allowing Catholics to have done the same.

That being said, this thread was asking Baptists for their beliefs. It became somewhat of a bash the baptist session. If that was not the intent, then starting comments with “Uh yeah” and calling him uneducated for calling the BAPTIST practice of annointing with oil a practice, is certainly counter productive to a civil exchange.

Tone can be mistaken in this forum. It is easy to do. But in my honest opinion, the general tone to our Baptist brother was condescending and hostile.

However, it would be a cop out to blame other people for not pursuing the truth. And the truth has more to do with problems with the authority of the Catholic Church than the uncharitable words and actions of those in it. I think the worst disservice a person can do is lie about the real reason for any action. Whether it is, no I meant to be nice, “Uh yeah sure I believe you” or it is the uncharitableness of people that keep me from looking further (but not quetions of authority?) Come on fellow Christians, honesty with God starts with honesty to yourself.

That is enough of pointing out others toothpicks, I have a headache, I need to go now and get rid of this log.

Your imperfect sister in Christ,
Maria
[/quote]

Thank you sister. Yes, what you have said here was exactly what I was trying to say. I didn’t want to get into a brawl, but it turned out that way pretty quick. I’m sorry for any hostile actions on my part as well.

God bless you all.


#19

[quote=Ontario]I appreciate your comments. (Sometimes when things are written down they can be read by different people in different ways not intended by the person writing them.)

I was curious what Baptist’s of other congregarions thought. The only Baptist’s I know are from “Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada”.
[/quote]

I’m glad you gleaned something from what I may have posted. I wish you peace and happiness.

God bless…


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