Another John's questions

This thread is a branch that started from another. This thread is being started because the subject is off the topic of the original thread.

The member, another John, has questions about why we pray to Saints and how we consider what the “true Church” is. Because his questions about praying to Saints was concerning its acceptability to God, I considered that both subjects belonged in the apologetics forum. I will wait for him to reformulate his questions in a post on this thread before responding and, respectfully ask others to do the same. :slight_smile:

Thats very considerate of you my friend but i think i post the same questions alot of people probably wondered at some time of their life or even now. Ok the question still stands about the differance between the koran vs. the bible? So just to be shure on the mechanism of prayer thread is this your opinion (about Judaism rejecting Jusus as the Messiah) or a fact. Where did you find this out?<—I dont need the information on that but I am just curious if its from word of mouth or reasearch. Also about doing the rosary because the pope says dosnt explain my questions about—>“here im quoteing an older conversation we had” we are praying to Mary, the Angels, Saints - Why?<–(in a curious way) My friends point was, im guessing to only pray to “GOD” considering he is a jelous God “said in the bible”. If we were asking the Saints, Angels or Mary to pray for us why wouldnt we ask them in the same way or form we ask a friend instead of repetitive sentances without thaught of the meaning of the sentances <–(meaning the rosary)“un quote”.I know we went thru this befor on my last quote but I need a more clearer answer.

in case of anyone who wants to be up to par, this is the link to the last thread me and the mutant were on forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=102467anyone else feel free also to post other questions.

Such a good question, another john! I’m not sure Catholics ask angels to pray for them though? I’ll leave that for someone else to answer. But I’m curious about the Hail Mary prayer also… why not just one time? Why is it said over & over again? (like during the rosary) Thank you!

John,

I don’t pretend that I can answer your questions to your full satisfaction, but I will certainly give the best answers I can.

[quote=another John]Ok the question still stands about the differance between the koran vs. the bible?
[/quote]

In the teaching of Islam, Jesus is regarded as a prophet of Allah as Mohammed was a prophet of Allah. However, Jesus and Mohammed taught contradictory things which means that the teachings of Allah are inconsistent. The most striking difference is that Jesus declared that He is God but Islam denies this. Truth is absolute and cannot change. I don’t pretend to know a great deal about Islam but I have learned that they don’t believe that Jesus was crucified; which is a denial of well established historical fact supported by non-Christian records. They deny that the Jews ever had a temple in Jerusalem which is another well established fact supported by records outside of Judaism and Christianity. The temple did exist and it was destroyed, rebuilt, and destroyed again. It is this inconsistency which, to me, proves that Islam cannot be true and, therefore, the Koran cannot be true.

[quote=another John]So just to be shure on the mechanism of prayer thread is this your opinion (about Judaism rejecting Jusus as the Messiah) or a fact. Where did you find this out?<—I dont need the information on that but I am just curious if its from word of mouth or reasearch.
[/quote]

Research. “Salvation is from the Jews: The Role of Judaism in Salvation History from Abraham to the Second Coming” by Roy H. Schoeman discusses this question as does “A Father Who Keeps His Promises: God’s Covenant Love in Scripture” by Scott Hahn. I have a complete list of Hebrew prophesies regarding the Messiah and how Jesus fulfilled them SOMEWHERE. As soon as I find it, I will give you that resource.

[quote=another John]Also about doing the rosary because the pope says dosnt explain my questions about—>“here im quoteing an older conversation we had” we are praying to Mary, the Angels, Saints - Why?<–(in a curious way) My friends point was, im guessing to only pray to “GOD” considering he is a jelous God “said in the bible”. If we were asking the Saints, Angels or Mary to pray for us why wouldnt we ask them in the same way or form we ask a friend instead of repetitive sentances without thaught of the meaning of the sentances <–(meaning the rosary)“un quote”.I know we went thru this befor on my last quote but I need a more clearer answer.
[/quote]

(praying the Rosary)
When we pray the Rosary, we are not making any requests of any saints (except, possibly a greater understanding of how the things we are meditating upon apply to us today). In regard to repeating the prayers without thinking about what they mean. This is merely one means of prayer – meditative or contemplative. It is a form of prayer used in many different religions; in this regard, the Hail Mary’s can be considered a form of mantra used while meditating on other things. The Rosary is merely one of many examples of this type of prayer in Catholicism; there are many chaplets of contempletative prayer approved by the Catholic Church. In regard to the Rosary, specifically, what is it that we are meditating upon? The Gospel. The life of Christ from conception to resurrection. Naturally, we can and should pray the Hail Mary while fully contemplating on the words at other times, but then you are not praying the Rosary; even if you are using the Rosary beads.

(continued from post #5)

(regarding not praying to Saints because God is a jealous God)
The scriptural references to God being jealous are referring to idolatry; which I addressed in the other thread – Catholics do NOT worship Mary or the other saints as gods but as examples of the faith which we strive to imitate. I think that it would help to explain why we believe it is acceptable to pray to the Saints by reviewing the concept of the “communion of saints” and the ways in which the Church exists according to Catholic teaching.

The Church exists in three states; the Church here on Earth (the Church militant), the Church in Purgatory (the Church suffering), and the Church in Heaven (the Church triumphant). As Catholics, we do not consider the souls in Purgatory or Heaven as being separated from us. They are still actively part of the same Church as we are and they can pray and act on our behalf just as others here on Earth can (and we can pray for them just as we can pray for each other). As I stated in the other thread, how can we ask them to pray for us other than through prayer? There is no other way. This prayer can take many forms including formalized prayers like novenas or conversational prayers like talking to a friend. All of these forms are perfectly acceptable in the Catholic Church.

You seem to object to the idea that I accept the pope’s declaration that such prayer is acceptable but, as I said in the other thread, Catholics accept the Church as a religious authority and the pope absolutely has the authority to make such a teaching. Remember that praying for souls is nothing more than praying for other members of the Church. Praying to the saints is simply the means of making petitions to those members of the Church who are no longer in the Church militant.

Lastly, I want to touch upon something I should have said earlier on, while we were still in the previous thread. If you have doubt regarding the acceptability of praying the Rosary then, by all means, don’t pray it. I still think that such a doubt is not just about prayer but goes much deeper and is reflected by your other questions, but ultimately you would know if that is the case; not me.

(regarding finding the true Church of Christ; another question posed in the other thread)
Again, I recommend “Faith of the Early Fathers” to find the consistency of the teachings of the Early Church with the Catholic Church today. I would also recommend the following reading to show the consistency of the teachings of the Catholic Church. “Theology and Sanity” by Frank Sheed, “Faith and Certitude” by Thomas Dubay, “Orthodoxy” and “The Everlasting Man” by G. K. Chesterton, “The Lamb’s Supper” and “A Father Who Keeps His Promises” by Scott Hahn, and “Jesus, Peter, and the Keys” by Butler, Dahlgren and Hess. I also recommend the following tape sets by Scott Hahn: “The End,” “Salvation History,” “Answering Common Objections,” “The Book of Hebrews,” and “The Bible Alone?”

sorry Carol if i aked a question that might stop you from praying the rosary. The Mutant is a good guy anything you need explination on ask him.The Mutant- Thank you for the good conversations and if i have the chance which I probably might not due to my baby being born yesterday, ill probably look in to the reasearch. So I might not be online as much, my friend. As for believing that we should have a pope yes i think its right and did befor the forums. My questions about “the Church” well if you seen video’s of Holy land which I have, it seems that there is a Catholic church on pretty much all the famous landmarks that Jesus was present (such as:above the birth place, the garden, the last supper, ect…). So basicly for me to inquire things about the church dosent mean that I dont believe/disbelieve, but like I said befor its questions maybee you the next man or anyone might have asked themselves at some time or another. I am curious about certain things otherwise I would have never asked, you were too otherwise you would have never done research. I hope to hear from you later in the forums (meaning our conversations are not over, it just might take a while to reply on things). Oh and wish me luck on my new bundle of joy and sleepless nights. GOD bless you my friend for being good at heart. Please feel free to ask questions or change the subject at anytime Carol or anyone who reads this. -another John

quoteing what you said here “The scriptural references to God being jealous are referring to idolatry” praying to someone who’s not GOD thats not idolry? <As i was saying the point my Baptist friend was getting at. This is basicly what the big question about the rosary is regarding to. I knew about those things you explained to me about the rosary befor I got into the forums (meditation focus on the mysteries). The question above is what this all comes down to.

[quote=another John] praying to someone who’s not GOD thats not idolry?
[/quote]

No, it’s not idolatry. Often there is a misunderstanding between Catholics and Protestants as to just what “praying to” means. Some non-Catholics thing that “praying to” is the same as “worship.” It’s not. The Catholic concept of prayer is simply communication. Conversation. Conversation is not worship. I communicate with you by writing, speech, sign language, any other way. I might ask you to pray for me.

By the same token I might ask a Saint in Heaven to pray for me. I might speak to a Saint as to a friend, as indeed the saints in heaven should be our friends. My word for that conversation is “praying to” them. It is not worshiping them.

As for repetition. Does anyone say the Lord’s Prayer only once in their life? Or any other prayer? No, we usually repeat those prayers routinely. Habit, in fact, strengthens our prayer life. Jesus himself taught us the Lord’s Prayer and told us to use it; he never said not to repeat it.

The rosary combines a meditation upon scenes of Our Lord’s life with reciting of the Lord’s Prayer, the Hail Mary, and the Glory Be.

JimG

wow JimG you really broke it down and gave more of an understanding to the rosary. Good answer! I have been wondering these things.

[quote=another John]Thats very considerate of you my friend but i think i post the same questions alot of people probably wondered at some time of their life or even now. Ok the question still stands about the differance between the koran vs. the bible?
[/quote]

The Koran rejects the divinity of Christ. It is a book that didn’t come around untill the 7th century.

So just to be shure on the mechanism of prayer thread is this your opinion (about Judaism rejecting Jusus as the Messiah) or a fact. Where did you find this out?<—I dont need the information on that but I am just curious if its from word of mouth or reasearch. Also about doing the rosary because the pope says dosnt explain my questions about—>“here im quoteing an older conversation we had” we are praying to Mary, the Angels, Saints - Why?<–(in a curious way) My friends point was, im guessing to only pray to “GOD” considering he is a jelous God “said in the bible”. If we were asking the Saints, Angels or Mary to pray for us why wouldnt we ask them in the same way or form we ask a friend instead of repetitive sentances without thaught of the meaning of the sentances <–(meaning the rosary)“un quote”.I know we went thru this befor on my last quote but I need a more clearer answer.

About the prayers to saints and Mary. We are supposed to think about the words that we are saying. We are also supposed to meditate on the passion of Christ and the other mysteries. The words of the Hail Mary are straight from the bible, so there is reason why we use the words we use. Repetive words without thought aabout what you are saying is bad but you are supposed to think about it. The more you pray the more time you are spending meditating on the mysteries and thinking of God.

[quote=carol marie]Such a good question, another john! I’m not sure Catholics ask angels to pray for them though? I’ll leave that for someone else to answer. But I’m curious about the Hail Mary prayer also… why not just one time? Why is it said over & over again? (like during the rosary) Thank you!
[/quote]

Yes, we do ask Mary and the saints to pray for us. That is the reason we pray to them. The more you pray the more you meditate on the mysteries. Prayer helps you to overcome vice.
For more in depth coverage look at JimG’s post to another John about the Rosary.

[quote=my third alias]wow JimG you really broke it down and gave more of an understanding to the rosary. Good answer! I have been wondering these things.
[/quote]

Yah I looked up the defenition of pray in the dictionary, thanks jimG real good answer. Many thanks the Mutant for all of the good answers you have provided me and also you Jimmy thank you.

does anyone know were I can find the war in heven in the bible besides the 1 in revelations. Im guessing it happened befor the birth of jesus, i cant find it in genesis. This is to satisfy my urge of knowing what went on. Sorry to take this thread completely off corse but anyone feel free to do the same, i know its not an apolgetics question so forgive me.

I was wondering if it would be wrong to pray to mary or the saints more than praying to God?

[quote=carol marie]I’m not sure Catholics ask angels to pray for them though?
[/quote]

Yes, we do! Scripture tells us to ask those in heaven – which includes angels – to pray for us. We see in Revelation the angels offering our prayers to God.

Additionally, as Scripture tells us, we each have a guardian angel “assigned” to watch over and pray for us. We are to invoke them to pray for us daily. Most of us who grew up Catholic know the following prayer: “Angel of God, my guardian dear, to whom God’s love commits me here. Ever this day be at my side to light, to guard, to rule, to guide. Amen.” I’m 42 and still pray it daily. :slight_smile:

Padre Pio was said to have a very close and personal relationship with his own guardian angel – and other angels as well.

another John,

Congratulations! As a father of two myself, I certainly understand that you won’t be able to participate in the forum as much now that you have a new baby and a recovering wife to care for. They are much more important than my long-winded ramblings. Tend to their needs and sleep as much as you can.

[quote=my third alias]I was wondering if it would be wrong to pray to mary or the saints more than praying to God?
[/quote]

If such a thing was done deliberately, the I would at least wonder why and would encourage one who did this to reverse the trend. For Catholics, prayer to God, and specifically to Jesus should take the highest priority which is why the Mass is such a high obligation – it is the source and center of all Catholic worship. It is also why we are emphatically encouraged to Eucharistic adoration.

Prayer to Saints is never intended to be a substitute for prayer to God; it is always “in addition to” prayer to God because the Saints, like the rest of us saints, are mere creatures who can only help us according to God’s will and who, ultimately will only serve to direct us to Christ. In praying the rosary, the entire point is focusing on God. 13 of the original 15 mysteries are all about the life of Christ and taken straight from the Gospel. The 5 new mysteries recently introduced are the same. The final two mysteries are about Mary, but they are about how Mary has been honored by God and do not attribute anything to her that does not originate from God.

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