Another LDS Pre-Existence Question!

Today, April 4th, in Mass today the Gospel said of Judas Iscariot:

“It would have been better for that man to have never been born”

What does that mean for the LDS concept of a pre-existence?

It would have been better had he remained an incorporeal spirit-child perhaps? :shrug:

Catholics don’t believe in pre-existent souls.

We do believe that all of us were in the mind of God before creation began and that He willed us into being because He loves us.

By believing that, we are not saying that we were pre-existence souls.

We receive our soul at the moment of our conception.

If I am not saying anything meaningful to the op, perhaps I do not understand the question.

The Mormon idea of pre-existence is not biblical nor is it Christian.

Jesus was passing judgement on Judas. Who was a thief as well as a betrayer. He committed suicide. Did he have regret?

I sometimes wonder.

We definitely agree with this statement and believe it applies to the Sons of Perdition. We believe the Sons of Perdition are very few indeed. They are those who have been partakers of Gods glory and have openly denied him. Who have crucified the Lord afresh in their hearts.

In the Doctrine and Covenants Joseph Smith saw outer darkness he says,

Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power-- They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come–Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels-- And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. D&C 76:31-38

As far as the pre-existence is concerned these Sons of Perdition did not rebel against Christ but at least passively accepted the Father’s Plan of Salvation. While on earth they received complete knowledge of God and yet rejected him utterly and entirely. Thus it would have been better for these few never to have received a body here in mortality. They will not recieve a Kingdom of Glory. All the rest of humanity will gain some measure of salvation. The final state of these souls is not completely known.

From what I take on that based on what I’ve learned about pre-existence, the plan of salvation and eternal progression, it would seem that Jesus was saying that even though Judas passed the test pre-existence, he failed miserably in his earthly life(so much so that Jesus declared that he should never have had a body).

Following that logic further, was Jesus also saying that Judas should have been cast out of heaven in the pre-existence along with all the other “brothers and sisters” who were to never receive a body?

So why not cast them into Hell, since that is the place reserved for those who reject God?

It could be, and is, called Hell. However, we believe Hell has at least two meanings:

  1. A temporary state for the wicked after death and before the resurrection. This will be a time of torment for the wicked but they will ultimately be resurrected. This is usually called spirit prison.
  2. A permanents state reserved for the Sons of Perdition, Satan, and those that chose to follow him during pre-existence. This is usually called outer darkness.

However, other things have not been completely revealed. For example, will they have a body and will they thus have power over Satan? Or will they eventually become disorganized in both body and spirit as alluded to by Brigham Young? As I said, these things are not completely revealed.

That kind of parallels the Catholic understanding of purgatory [a temporary place of purification and punishment] and hell [a permanent separation from God].

My understanding is that those sons of perdition who were born on this earth will be resurrected and so will have bodies in the next life. All who choose to come to this earth and receive mortal bodies will be resurrected, although only the elect will rise in the first resurrection. I believe that it also was taught by some LDS leaders that the sons of perdition will have more power than Satan in hell because they will at least have bodies, although I may be wrong on that one. I can’t think of where I read that.

So is Adam a son of perdition since he rejected God in the garden?

Absolutely not! We believe, the patriarch of all humanity is not a sinner worthy of perdition. Instead he wisely chose to follow Eve and partake of the fruit. In so doing the rest of humanity entered mortality. As the Book of Mormon says, “Adam fell that man might be, and men are that they might have joy” (2 Ne 2:25) We honor Adam and Eve for the difficult, but correct choice they made.

But if Judas hadn’t betrayed Jesus, he would not have been crucified. So why don’t LDS praise Judas for making the difficult, but correct choice that he was destined to fulfill?

In LDS theology, Adam’s choice was not between good and evil but rather between a good choice and a better choice. Thus in eating the fruit Adam did not sin. However, Judas clearly knew what was right and wilfully rebelled, and so committed a grievous sin.

So, Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of the good choice and the better choice?:shrug: :stuck_out_tongue:

So Adam and Eve could:

  • Remain childless in the garden and live forever in their current state - knowing neither misery nor joy.
    or
  • Eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and bring children - along with the consequence of sin and death - into the world. In so doing they would initiate the great plan of salvation for all of Father’s sons and daughters. Additionally, a Savior would be provided to redeem mankind from the consequences of the fall.

If Adam (or Eve) didn’t sin, then why did God punish them by banishing them from Paradise? Do LDS really believe that God is that unjust, to punish them for doing something “good”?

Along that same line, how did sin then enter the perfect world that God had created, from that point on, if Adam never sinned?

Why did God even need to send a Savior if all mankind wasn’t being punished for Adam’s sin, by having to live in the world that was corrupted as a direct result of Adam’s choice? What did Jesus have to save us from, if not from Adam’s sin?

Genesis 1:[27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. [28] And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth."
God gave them the command to “increase and multiply” before they were banished from the Garden of Paradise. So, eventually, they would have had children, whether or not they ate the fruit. That had nothing to do with them having children. The only difference was because of their sin, all women would have to bear children in pain and suffering, instead of without any pain, as it would have been in Paradise.

If Adam didn’t sin, what was his “fall”?

So how does that reconcile with God commanding Adam and Eve to be fruitful(joyful?) and multiply BEFORE they ate the fruit?

Eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and bring children - along with the consequence of sin and death - into the world. In so doing they would initiate the great plan of salvation for all of Father’s sons and daughters. Additionally, a Savior would be provided to redeem mankind from the consequences of the fall.

So Jesus’ death and resurrection are reduced to an automated response to a choice that was protocol?

So, Adam, who was once the angel michael and later, according to Brigham Young, our God, did not have enough faith in God to somehow make it right WITHOUT disobeying God?

Funny how you justify Adam’s disobeying God. God never said “Do not eat of the fruit unless Eve does first and then make a judgment call”

sounds like you are saying.
good choice - be obedient to God and trust in him completely that he would provide all that you need.

or

better choice - disobey God.

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