Another Question for Protestants


#1

Does born again = saved?


#2

Hi,
Read John 3 the up to verse 21 and let me know what you think.:smiley:


#3

yes and no

Salvation has a past, present and fulture element to it.

When one is born agian, they are born of the Holy Spirit.

They have become a new creature, a babe in the faith who must grow and mature.

The growth and maturity process we call santification.

We recieve our immortal resurrected bodies in the future.

Give II Peter chapter one a read.

The Calvinist among us claim that one can not lose their salvaion. Those that believe in free will teachings are similiar to catholics in that we believe one can walk away from God.

So, we must press on, run the good race, to be called a good and faithful servant. Calvinists say we will succeed, whereas free will people say, we might succeed.


#4

I am a Methodist and do not believe “once saved always saved” as the Baptists do.
I believe that you can turn your back on God and lose your salvation.
So I suppose we are not truly saved until we die in Christ.
We are constantly in the process of being saved as I see it.
WP


#5

This is basically the Catholic belief as well.


#6

Not exactly, The way in wich one can lose salvation is different between protestants and Catholics. Catholics have more ways to lose it.

Of Course Calvinists don’t believe salvation can be lost at all.


#7

Boy, if that’s the case then I certainly don’t want to be Catholic! :smiley: :wink:


#8

Just because you don’t believe it doesn’t mean that you can’t lose it.

That is the real scary part. :stuck_out_tongue:


#9

Certainly, but it was simply too good to resist…


#10

Is there no part of “Christendom” that teaches you have no chance for salvation? I thought by now someone would have suggested it…practically everything else has had a spin at the pulpit. :slight_smile:


#11

Do Protestants/evangelicals/etc. who believe one can fall from grace believe infidelity (meaning abandoning the faith) is the only mortal sin, or will other post-baptism (or post-act of faith) unrepentent sins lead to damnation as well?

(I hope that question makes sense :stuck_out_tongue: )


#12

It does.


#13

I remember a tract with the title, “If being born again hasn’t done you any good, try being born again.”

Many evangelical Protestants (I was one for 40 years) believe that if you turn away from Jesus, you were never really born again to begin with.

I saw it happen over and over again. Really good Christians, even those in leadership/ teaching/youth worker positions in the church–but they turn away from Jesus to embrace a sinful lifestyle (often an affair that leads to divorce) and the pronouncement is, “they were never really saved to begin with or they wouldn’t have turned away from the Lord Jesus.”

This teaching is SO TERRIFYING! Frankly, I think anyone who actually believes this needs to take a good, long, hard, honest look at what they are really saying.

The Sunday School teacher that is teaching your kindergartener, the VBS worker who tells the Bible story, the missionary who shows slides to the junior highers, the youth pastor who chaperones the youth group to the annual youth convention, the choir director who leads the children and teenagers in singing–THESE PEOPLE MIGHT NOT REALLY BE CHRISTIANS AT ALL!

If they fall into sin and turn away from the faith, then they were just faking it all that time while they were working with your susceptible kids.

The lady who’s leading your Women’s Bible study, the man who leads the early morning men’s prayer circle, the deacon in charge of prison outreach, the elder who chairs the pastoral review committee, the pastor himself (or herself, but still not common in evangelical churches)–they all might be faking it! They might not be Christians at all!

We’ll only know if they were real when they die, and even then, they might be living a secret life of sin (as was Ted Haggard) and not really be Christians (although apparently he is still a real Christian since he is sorry for what he has done.)

How can you know someone is really born again until the day they die? You can’t! All that talk about “assurance of salvation” is a lie. You can never be sure of anyone’s salvation, even your own, because people “fall away” all the time, and that means they were never really saved, since it’s impossible to “fall away” from Jesus if you’re REALLY BORN AGAIN!

Of course, maybe they’re just “carnal,” which means you’re still saved, but you are living a sinful lifestyle with God off the throne of your life.

But…but…isn’t that what it means to be a non-Christian–living a sinful lifestyle with God off the throne of your life?

Oh, wait–the “Sinner’s Prayer” is good once for all, no matter what you do. A thousand murders, etc. The dunghill covered with snow.

What a worthless faith! Pray a prayer, you’re a Child of God, going to heaven, no matter what sins you commit for the rest of your life! Once you’ve prayed “The Magic Prayer,” you’re solid.

As Homer Simpson would say, “AAAAGH, AAAAGH, AAAAGH, AAAAGH, AAAAGH, AAAAGH, etc.!”

No wonder so few people believe the Gospel (according to evangelicals). It’s full of holes! It’s like doughnuts without the dough! Just holes. Anyone can see that it’s pretty worthless. A prayer is your ticket to heaven. Nothing required from you–in fact, to “do” anything is a “work,” and “works” demonstrate that you are trusting in yourself instead of Christ to save you.

Just let go and let God.

The amazing thing is, I believed all this for 40 years.

And the even more amazing thing is, when I became Catholic, certain sins that had plagued me since childhood (addictive sins) were gone within a year. I’m not saying I’m perfect or a saint, but at least I’m now seeing some progress.


#14

Yeah, growing up that’s what evangelical protestants have all told me…”proof is in the bible”… until I started reading the bible myself, researching other sources, and meditating on the subject. I think now I have a much better understanding of the issue. In short, I think that if you are born again (baptized via water and the Holy Spirit) you are saved via sanctifying grace, and we must avoid sin to maintain that grace, and with that grace via the Holy Spurt (Who proceeds from the Father and Son) we can enter His Kingdom once we leave the earth.

So, more accurately I suppose it could be said that:
born again = baptized, whereas,
saved = born again + maintaining grace + dying with grace


#15

[quote=alms]Yeah, growing up that’s what evangelical protestants have all told me…”proof is in the bible”… until I started reading the bible myself, researching other sources, and meditating on the subject. I think now I have a much better understanding of the issue. In short, I think that if you are born again (baptized via water and the Holy Spirit) you are saved via sanctifying grace, and we must avoid sin to maintain that grace, and with that grace via the Holy Spurt (Who proceeds from the Father and Son) we can enter His Kingdom once we leave the earth.

So, more accurately I suppose it could be said that:
born again = baptized, whereas,
saved = born again + maintaining grace + dying with grace
[/quote]

That is what I was taught as a Catholic.


#16

All you, who have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. Alleluia!


#17

Mickey, I agree with the verse you quoted–all who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

But evangelical Protestants would say that the baptism referred to is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. They would cross-reference I Corinthians 12 and say that “by one Spirit we are all baptized…”

They would say that you are taking the verse out of context, and presenting water baptism as a means of being born again, when, in reality, being born again is a work of the Spirit, not of the “flesh” through water baptism.

I’ve given up trying to convince evangelical Protestants of the necessity of baptism. They’re convinced that it is an “outward symbol of an inner reality,” and that’s it. Even though that isn’t in the Bible, they claim it is and do all kinds of gymnastics to make it appear to be in the Bible.


#18

Hello Cat,

I am familiar with the numerous ways in which the various denominations attempt to change the Biblical and Traditional understanding of baptism–and it saddens me. God has always used the spiritual and physical to convey His Grace upon us. His only begotten Son was divine and human. And so through baptism, we are born again by water and the Spirit.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. (Gen 1:1-2)

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#19

I know. And they say WE don’t make any sense.


#20

This whole thread dosn’t make any sense mainly because everyone are taking Calvinism and Arminianism (which are opposites) and trying to discuss them as if they were identical (under the title “Protestants”).

Try dividing them up and we may yet have an interesting conversation.


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