Answer to Born Again Bash on Catholicism


#1

Hi all, I received this e-mail, which I think Ill have to break down to 2 posts due to length, from a friend who’s “Born Again” and thinks he has answers to bash my faith. Any help in answering this is much appreciated. Here;'s the e-mail (The 1st half):

**
The Plain Truth about
the Roman Catholic Church (Link)

The Roman Catholic Church claims to have started in Matthew 16:18 when Christ supposedly appointed Peter as the first Pope. However, the honest and objective student of the Scriptures and history soon discovers that the foundation of the Roman church is none other than the pagan mystery religion of ancient Babylon.

While enduring the early persecutions of the Roman government (65-300 A.D.), most of professing Christianity went through a gradual departure from New Testament doctrine concerning church government, worship and practice. Local churches ceased to be autonomous by giving way to the control of “bishops” ruling over hierarchies. The simple form of worship from the heart was replaced with the rituals and splendor of paganism. Ministers became “priests,” and pagans became “Christians” by simply being sprinkled with water. This tolerance of an unregenerate membership only made things worse. SPRINKLED PAGANISM is about the best definition for Roman Catholicism.

The Roman Emperor Constantine established himself as the head of the church around 313 A.D., which made this new “Christianity” the official religion of the Roman Empire. The first actual Pope in Rome was probably Leo I (440-461 A.D.), although some claim that Gregory I was the first (590-604 A.D.). This ungodly system eventually ushered in the darkest period of history known to man, properly known as the “Dark Ages” (500-1500 A.D.). Through popes, bishops, and priests, Satan ruled Europe, and Biblical Christianity became illegal.

**(Edited to conform to CAF quote standard. Link to website added.)


#2

Here’s the 2nd part. Thanks again everyone for your help in answering this:

**B]Purgatory

The Catholic Church teaches that a Christian’s soul must burn in purgatory after death until all of their sins have been purged. To speed up the purging process, money may be paid to a priest so he can pray and have special masses for an earlier release.

This heresy began creeping into the Roman Church during the reign of Pope Gregory around the end of the sixth century, and it has no scriptural support. In fact, Jesus warned us about this pagan practice in Matthew 23:14 when He spoke of those who devoured widows houses and made long prayers for a pretence. Psalm 49:6-7 tells us that a person couldn’t redeem a loved one, even if such a place did exist: “They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches; None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:”

Peter addresses this issue in Acts 8:20 when he says, “Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.” God’s word is clearly against the doctrine of purgatory.

The Mass

By perverting the Christian practice of the Lord’s Supper (Mat. 26:26-28; I Cor. 11:23-27), the Catholic Church has created the Mass, which they believe to be a continual sacrifice of Jesus Christ:

“Christ…commanded that his bloody sacrifice on the Cross should be daily renewed by an unbloody sacrifice of his body and blood in the Mass under the simple elements of bread and wine.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, Pg. 13, Article: “Mass, Sacrifice of”)

Jesus never made such a command. If you’ll check the above references in Matthew 26 and I Corinthians 11, you’ll see for yourself that the Lord’s Supper is a MEMORIAL and a SHOWING of Christ’s death until He comes again. It is not a sacrifice. The Catholic Encyclopedia states the following:

“In the celebration of the Holy Mass, the bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ. It is called transubstantiation, for in the Sacrament of the Eucharist the substance of bread and wine do not remain, but the entire substance of bread is changed into the body of Christ, and the entire substance of wine is changed into his blood, the species or outward semblence of bread and wine alone remaining.” (Vol. 4, pg. 277, Article: “Consecration”)

The Catholic Church teaches that the “Holy Mass” is a LITERAL EATING AND DRINKING OF THE LITERAL FLESH AND BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. The priest supposedly has the power to change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

Now, what does God’s word say about such practices? If you’ll read Genesis 9:4, Leviticus 17:11-12, and Acts 15:29, you will find that God absolutely FORBIDS the drinking of blood all through the Bible.

Rome teaches that the Mass is a continual “sacrifice” of Jesus Christ, but God’s word states that Jesus made the FINAL sacrifice on Calvary! This is made perfectly clear in Hebrews 10:10-12:

“By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.”

The mass is unnecessary and unscriptural.

Image Worship

The Catholic religion is filled with all sorts of symbols, images, and relics. The Catechism of the Council of Trent states these words:

“It is lawful to have images in the Church, and to give honor and worship unto them…”

It’s lawful to honor and worship images? Not according to God’s word. Exodus 20:4-5 says, “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.” Image worship is unscriptural and will end with the eternal damnation of those who practice it (Rev. 14:11).

Salvation by Works

Through infant baptism, keeping sacraments, church membership, going to mass, praying to Mary, and confession (just to mention a few), the Catholic church has developed a system of salvation through WORKS. God’s word says that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not through works:

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Eph. 2:8-9)

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” (Romans 4:5)

Jesus Christ came into this world to lay down His sinless life for YOU–to pay for your sins, because you couldn’t. Jesus is your only hope for salvation. Only by receiving Him as your Saviour can you enter the gates of Heaven. There is no other way.

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me.” (John 14:6)

The Lord Jesus Christ has come and PAID for your sins by shedding His own Blood on Calvary. By receiving Him as your Saviour, you can be WASHED from all your sins in His precious Blood (Rev. 1:5; Col. 1:14; Acts 20:28; I Pet. 1:18-19). Notice these important words from Romans 5:8-9:

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”**


#3

Unless you have relationship with this person, my advice is the best response is no response at all.


#4

I feel like I should defend my faith, but more inportantly give him The Truth. Isn’t that our obligation, even in the face of misinfomation?


#5

Pretty much everything in that post is addressed for it’s errors in the Catholic Answers Library. Pick a section or two at a time and reply by sending a link to the associated article(s) from Catholic Answers.

If they don’t want to listen as to how they are misrepresenting actual Catholic teaching, then perhaps you should leave them to wallow in their ignorance - shake the dust off of your sandals while leaving, as is suggested in the Gospels and in Acts.


#6

A person like this does not WANT the Truth. These are quotes out of anti-Catholic tracts. Even the most basic historical facts are wrong. This type of person has no interest in Truth. Indeed, just as Pontius Pilate said, their reply would be “What is Truth?”

We were also instructed to shake the dust from our sandals.

This is one of those times, IMHO…

If I was good friends with them I might get a copy of Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism, read it thoroughly, make notes, and invite them to coffee and discussion.

But, really, would a good friend – moreover a sane person-- send something like that in email to someone and expect them to magically “convert”? Would a good friend bash your religion wholesale without the least bit of fact checking? Google isn’t that hard to use.

I would **NOT **lob scriptural grenades with this person via email. It would be a HUGE waste of time.


#7

I agree with John. The post is just riddled with so much garbage you could find yourself in an endless discussion and never reach a conclusion.

The only thing that comes to mind as I scanned this garbage is to take just one thing, one indisputable thing that sheds doubt on many of the assertions in this post, and that is the Mass. If he thinks the Mass is a creation of the post Constantine church read these two quotes from early Christians.

107 A.D. - On the way to his death by the jaws of a lion in the Coliseum, under Roman guard, Ignatius of Antioch wrote to the Philadelphians: "Take care, then, to partake of one Eucharist, for one is the Flesh of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and one the cup to unite us with His Blood . . ." And he wrote to the Symrnaeans: "From Eucharist and prayer they [the heretics] hold aloof, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father in His loving-kindness raised from the dead. And so, those who question the gift of God perish in their contentiousness."

155 A.D. - Justin Martyr wrote an explanation of Christian belief to the Roman Emperor: "And this food is called among us Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things which we teach are true, and has received the washing that is for the remission of sins and for rebirth, and who so lives as Christ handed down. For we do not receive these things as common bread nor common drink, but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Savior having been incarnate by God’s logos took both flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food eucharistized through the word of prayer that is from Him, from which our blood and flesh are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who became incarnate. For the apostles in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, thus handed down what was commanded them: that Jesus took bread and having given thanks said: ‘Do this for my memorial, this is my body’; and likwise He took the chalice and having given thanks said: ‘This is my blood’; and gave it to them alone."


#8

I would say:

“[T]he honest and objective student of the Scriptures and history soon discovers that the foundation of” your e-mail is factual mistatements and faulty scritural reading on a scale to large to address.


#9

Yes, this was something where I wouldn’t even know where to begin,and I wonder what his agenda could possibly be…I wish I could just give him a link to facutally dispute it, but I could certainly just cut and paste from the Answers section, as was suggested.
Also…I agree not to engage in a garbage match, which is what it seems this e-mail tries to beget.


#10

The person took the email straight off a webpage, which means the said person did not even bother to research the information himself. As janman55 said, I would blow a hole into one of the statements, then ask him to do some real research (suggest he start with the Church Fathers).

Here is a link to a Catholic Answers tract disputing the pagan Catholicism claim at the start of the email.

God bless,
Ut


#11

catholic-legate.com/

catholic-legate.com/

scripturecatholic.com/

bringyou.to/apologetics/apolog.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/apolog.htm#ANSWERS


#12

I’d wish your “friend” well, tell him the next time he wishes to discuss your faith, that he should do so on his own rather than copying from a webpage (per Ut, above, and include the link), and let him know that–like you said–you refuse to get into a garbage match with him. Then shake the dust off your sandals, per the other posters above.

The nerve of some people. :rolleyes:


#13

He didn’t even bother to WRITE it himself. These are not original thoughts. They aren’t even thoughts. Doesn’t strike me as a person who is a thinker. If the OP were to refute every single thing, I doubt it would make a difference. After all, it was on a website-- it must be true!

Oh, and garbage of this magnitude doesn’t just come your way-- you have to go looking for it. That says a lot about this “friend” and his character… not to mention his gullibility.


#14

You are right. He is doing what is called “data dumping”, a cut-and-paste of second-hand objections. If you were to refute it, you just get another data dump–and thus be endlessly spinning your wheels, which is kinda what he wants I suspect.

The only way I would interact with this person is to insist that he give you one objection at a time, and that objection needs to be in his own words.


#15

I would agree with what others say about not bothering. It’s just cut and paste stuff. If I were to answer, I’d say that I was incredibly offended by the email and ask them if they’d like it if you did the same. That you know what they copied was plain wrong and that the person was misinformed, and that it’s not a very christian thing to spread lies like that. And that they have no chance of converting anyone by spreading such offensive lies.

When it comes to stuff like this, people aren’t looking for interaction, just trying to bomb or shock you into uncertainty. Which is why you must know your faith and not be shaken by this stuff.


#16

I was a member of a “non-denominational” church for several years before returning to the Catholic church, so I’ve had a lot of experience with these kinds of people. They really are not at all interested in truth. My standard response to them now is to strongly recommend they read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and we could base future discussions on that. No one has ever taken me up on that.

Also, this way, if they really are interested in intelligent discussion, we have a common basis and we can discuss actual Catholic doctrine, not someone’s misguided interpretation or opinion of said doctrine. I contend that any born again Christian with a working knowledge of scripture will agree with at least 95% of the CCC.

If they are too lazy to read the CCC, the Nicene Creed is a good place to start.


#17

Well, welcome to the forums!

Please email your “friend” back with a link to these forums. Perhaps tell him there are many, MANY Catholics here who need to hear from him…:slight_smile:

In Peace,

Terry


#18

All Catholics are born again and if they know their Catholic faith have no problem claiming that.

Too bad that alot of Catholics and most Protestants don’t know that.


#19

Anyone here could refute everything in that email, obviously, but all I can recommend is that you be patient. Ask him to be patient enough to let you explain it as it is, and not as he would like to interpret it. Start with a single topic, and work on what Catholics believe about that, and also letting him explain what he thinks of it too.

And the tracts on Catholic Answers are wonderful too.


#20

I’d first ask: Did you write this?

When he says no, I’d say: Good. I’m so glad as that document is so lacking in Christian charity that my heart aches for him. I’m glad you are born again and have committed yourself to Christ. I too made my commitment to Christ and so love my journey with Christ. I don’t know what I’d do without Him in my life. Sometime when we have time, lets get together and share our stories.

I wouldn’t argue with him. He currently sees you as a heretic at best. You need to let him see that it is Christ who lives in you before he will listen to any refutation you have of his misperceptions.

I know as I have a dear friend who believes much of this stuff about Catholics. We only maintain a relationship by focusing on what we agree on. Over time, I’ve been able to soften him a great deal. Not very long ago, he asked me to explain the recent statement by the Pope on “salvation on through the Church.” He didn’t quite understand or agree with it all. But at least he asked sincerely rather than striking out with vitriol.

Only continue this relationship if you are willing to devote years to the process. My buddy and I have been doing this dance for at least 20 years and only now getting respectful w/ regards to religion and faith.


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